Normalizing audio waveforms?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

To each his own re terminology, as audio is so fragmented that way. I don't consider matching average levels to be normalization... even if there are processors now that do it (after a fashion anyway) and call it that.

As you say, to each his own. And no question that peak normalization is what most cheap "normalizers" that come with basic NLEs do, so I can see you position, to a degree.

But to take it back to first principles, "normalization" is an old statistics and info theory principle that simply simply means adjusting or filtering data according to a pre-defined acceped spec. It predates anything we commonly call a "normalizer" in our NLEs. It doesn't have to involve pure volume, per se - one can normalize a signal around an equalization curve or even around a second reference signal, for example. It doesn't even have to involve audio. One can normalize anything from statistical data to digital image levels.

To each his own, you're right. But considering the poster's description of it sounding like it was compressing the signal, and considering the increasing proliferation of sophisticated tools and plugs that normalize around either peak or, RMS levels, there at least a chance that he unknowingly had his normalizer plug set to RMS rather than peak, and therefore was worth including in the reply as more than an academic exercise.

G.

 

[noisewreck]

You could do what one of my buddies did this summer...

He purposely dropped and damaged one of his old keyboards so that his gal would let hin get the new one. A dangerous gambit, perhaps, and he'll probably burn in hell for it, but he got the new keys

Well, considering my main keyboard is a Kurzweil K2600XS, that's not likely to happen. You'd pry that our of my cold dead fingers.

You're right about sex and marriage though. They are in inverse proportion with one another

 

[Joseph Hanna]

I don't think even those boneheads do that before the mix.

Some of those "boneheads" have a Porsche AND a Ferrari and a paid for home in the Hollywood Hills.

Say what you will about what is or is not driving the market mix wise but take my word for it....these are decidedly NOT boneheads.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Some of those "boneheads" have a Porsche AND a Ferrari and a paid for home in the Hollywood Hills.

You're right, that's how we should judge engineering skills; by whether they are idiotic enough to own a Porsche or a Ferrari (let alone both) on the gridlocked streets and freeways of L.A. It's no wonder that person is a soldier in the Volume Wars...the only smart one there is that bonehead's mechanic.

G.

 

[Joseph Hanna]

You're right, that's how we should judge engineering skills; by whether they are idiotic enough to own a Porsche or a Ferrari (let alone both) on the gridlocked streets and freeways of L.A. It's no wonder that person is a soldier in the Volume Wars...the only smart one there is that bonehead's mechanic.

G.

Naw you've taken my point out of context for your own service. The example I gave was (of course) metaphorical.

It's foolish to think that the producers and engineers here in Hollywood are anything but massively talented. You simply DO NOT rise to the top of this heap unless you're talented. PERIOD. They don't compress production because they're boneheads. That's a ridiculous over simplification of an enormously complicated and competitive industry of which it takes incredible moxy and savvy and intellect to stay afloat.

They record mix and master CD's based on what they think will sell and the market will support. That is their job and their skill set. If the market supported them doing highly dynamic, non compressed productions they would and could rise to that occasion.


I "get" the fact you don't like overly compressed contemporary recordings and that's okay. The merits, or lack there in, of that have been discussed adnaseum.

I'll say again. There are not many boneheads at that level of the industry.

 

[Sinistah]

ayeeee, easy on the hostility....... i just record vocals, and Glens breakdown was all i needed to know.....

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'll say again. There are not many boneheads at that level of the industry.

There are boneheads to be found at every level of every industry. I'm not saying that everybody is a bonehead, I'm just saying that professional strata are no filter whatsoever against boneheadedness. There are boneheaded surgeons, boneheaded politicians, boneheaded rocket scientists, boneheaded lawyers and boneheaded professors, just as much as there are boneheaded people in any other "lesser" profession. And the entertainment industry is no exception.

Anybody who thinks The Volume Wards are actualy good idea, regardless of the metric used to define "good", is a bonehead. It's just that simple. It's an indefensible position which zero benefits and plenty of defecits. Period. There is no debate here. Anybody who debates that above position is simply arguing from a position of ignorance of the history and the facts of the whole issue.

And one of the facts is that the *vast* majority of the true professionals in this business, the engineers and the real musicians, are against the Wars. They resent the boneheads calling the shots and telling them to mangle otherwise perfectly good productions. The ones that are actually for it are the A&R guys, the label producers, the program directors, and the performers that don't know the difference between a decibel and a barbell who actually think the mantra "louder is better" actually makes sense. They are the ones calling the shots. They are the boneheads indeed. The few boneheads making the many non-boneheads despair.

And don't give me any crap about they have to have experience or talent to get to that point. your average professional label producer, A&R guy, or program director today is barely out of college and certainly under the age of 28 and may easily not have had more than one actual job before the one they currently have. They are hired not for their experience, not for their training, but for their demographic and for their ability to pick stuff that sells to 18 yr olds. The real boneheads are those who put those children in such big shoes.

G.

 

[mixsit]

Anybody who thinks The Volume Wards are actualy good idea, regardless of the metric used to define "good", is a bonehead. It's just that simple. It's an indefensible position which zero benefits and plenty of defecits. Period.
G.

Unfortunately isn't also fair to say that a fairly high percentage of good people are simply caught in the fear of lost sales?
The damage is done. The 'standard' is so unbelievably blown past where dynamic audio can go that.. You know exactly where this is going.

There's is a thread in one of the mastering forums where the question is in so many words 'Do you a/b much?' Most all respond that (again, generalizing here) of course (we) a/b to see that the audio has actually been improved. Interesting in that you can hear (and translate) in an instant how much more impact and satisfying music could have been otherwise. This indicates either these answerers may not have been quite complete regarding the actual motives in play, or ears' (receptions/POV) have indeed actually changed -all the way up the chain.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Unfortunately isn't also fair to say that a fairly high percentage of good people are simply caught in the fear of lost sales?

What better indicator of boneheadedness than when you let fear get in the way of intelligence?

There is exactly ZERO correlation between RMS and sales. It's based upon an old AM radio formula that increased broadcast range, and therefore number of listeners, and has no reality in today's FM and digital media. In fact there are plenty of indicators that the recent Volume Wars hurt overall sales (long and short term).

Any "fear" that anyone has that they are not loud enough to "compete" is based upon either intentional ignorance or incedental stupidity. Which seems like a pretty good gauge of "boneheadedness".

G.

 

[mixsit]

I used the term 'fear of lost sale' as a way to 'cut to the chase as to cause and effect. Presuming though, most in the industry are a) not boneheads and b) fairly informed as to 'loudness, so what would be driving it?
I characterize it as analogous to the steroid problem. Mostly everyone knows the variables at play but.. the game is on.

(add: This could have just as well included 'not wanting to sound out of the norm'. It is the 'norm' that has been created that is the key, and the problem I believe.)

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Presuming though, most in the industry are a) not boneheads and b) fairly informed as to 'loudness, so what would be driving it?

Why do you presume that most 25-yr-olds thrust into executive decision positions with piles of money and cocaine crossing their desks, along with their hair-band headbanger clients who only want to get laid more often than Mick Jagger are not going to make boneheded decisions?

Myth, mostly. combined with a "rush to where the lightning last struck" mentality.

The Myth part of it is the actual belief that louder is indeed better because it gets more people to listen. This goes back to old compression practices from AM radio to get more broadcast distance wthout illegally overmodulating the signal. That was a legitimate engineering technique; it actually did legally increase a radio station's broadcast range. It no longer has any validation.

The mettality is that it's easier to just replicate a formula that worked once than to actually try to be creative or try to actually give the public something they want. Exactly the way that "Who wants To Be A Millionaire" burned out from over exposure, yet we still have executives and directors going to that well and chrning out crap like "Who's Smarter Than A 5th Grader".

And a combination of the two, we hear it here all the time: "you gotta be loudt to compete." Bullshit. Anybody with half a brain knows that in any competition the best way to win is not to attack the competition at their strength, not to play their game. Rather the way to win is to hit the competition where they're the weakest and to play the game your way. If Joe Bonehead wants to pump out something with a -5dBFS RMS, let him. let his public take his stuff out of rotation early because their ears will fatigue on it. In the meantime your rich, textured, actually interesting and non-tiring to listen to mix, which may not sound quite a loud, will still be an enjoyable listen several weeks after that.

You want exposure to more people? Don't try doing it by volume, because we're not on AM radio any more, and you can only get so loud compared to your competition. Instead, reach more people by actually being more listenable, and by staying on people's playlists longer.


And finally, remember mixit, everying in the entertainment business is fashon. The Volume Wars are not the latest high-tech discovery that advances the technology and quality of music production, and from which we will never return. Moving from dynamics to pancakes is not the equivalent of moving from mono to stereo or from vinyl to optical disc. It is only fashon choice based upon a fad use of new technology. The 70s had over-the-top super-production that accompanied the wide availability of high track count multitrack recording. The 80s found synth rock as synth technology matured past the oscillators and patch cords stage into more integrated and more traditionally fucnctioning (if not sounding) musical instruemnts. The 90s found DAW technology and the extensive use of signal processing, especially in the form of high-compression.

The Volume Wars are the polyester leisure suit of current engineering fashon. They will go out of stayle evenutially. It's just that it won't be too fast for most of us.

G.

 

[Ford Van]

There are boneheads to be found at every level of every industry. I'm not saying that everybody is a bonehead, I'm just saying that professional strata are no filter whatsoever against boneheadedness. There are boneheaded surgeons, boneheaded politicians, boneheaded rocket scientists, boneheaded lawyers and boneheaded professors, just as much as there are boneheaded people in any other "lesser" profession. And the entertainment industry is no exception.

Anybody who thinks The Volume Wards are actualy good idea, regardless of the metric used to define "good", is a bonehead. It's just that simple. It's an indefensible position which zero benefits and plenty of defecits. Period. There is no debate here. Anybody who debates that above position is simply arguing from a position of ignorance of the history and the facts of the whole issue.

And one of the facts is that the *vast* majority of the true professionals in this business, the engineers and the real musicians, are against the Wars. They resent the boneheads calling the shots and telling them to mangle otherwise perfectly good productions. The ones that are actually for it are the A&R guys, the label producers, the program directors, and the performers that don't know the difference between a decibel and a barbell who actually think the mantra "louder is better" actually makes sense. They are the ones calling the shots. They are the boneheads indeed. The few boneheads making the many non-boneheads despair.

And don't give me any crap about they have to have experience or talent to get to that point. your average professional label producer, A&R guy, or program director today is barely out of college and certainly under the age of 28 and may easily not have had more than one actual job before the one they currently have. They are hired not for their experience, not for their training, but for their demographic and for their ability to pick stuff that sells to 18 yr olds. The real boneheads are those who put those children in such big shoes.

G.

Hey bonehead, I see that you are VERY quick to criticize the work of people who have put it out there for all to hear!

Come on Glen, let's here your stellar, uncompressed, quality work! I am sure that with such an authoritative opinion like calling them "boneheads" that you MUST have some stellar sounding work to share with us!

Constantly you voice opinions about people who MAKE A LIVING producing audio based on the work WE CAN HEAR! Give some weight to that opinion Glen. Let's hear your work.

I know, I know....more excuses forthcoming..........

 

[Ford Van]

What better indicator of boneheadedness than when you let fear get in the way of intelligence?

There is exactly ZERO correlation between RMS and sales. It's based upon an old AM radio formula that increased broadcast range, and therefore number of listeners, and has no reality in today's FM and digital media. In fact there are plenty of indicators that the recent Volume Wars hurt overall sales (long and short term).

Any "fear" that anyone has that they are not loud enough to "compete" is based upon either intentional ignorance or incedental stupidity. Which seems like a pretty good gauge of "boneheadedness".

G.

Wrong! You are such a bonehead.

 

[Robert D]

Should boneheads be normalized? Does bonehead normalization just bring thier peak intellignece level up to 0dSU (dumb shit units), or does it compress their boneheadedness and make it even worse?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Hey bonehead, I see that you are VERY quick to criticize the work of people who have put it out there

Oh, you mean like me, Benny, Ethan and Harvey?

Oh wait, no that was you over just the past few days.

I do appreciate you putting me in with such top-shelf company. If you're willing to take the time out to follow me around the board just to disrespect me the same way as you have those outstanding gentlemen, I must be doing something right. Dogs don't bark at parked cars.

G.

 

[Ford Van]

Oh, you mean like me, Benny, Ethan and Harvey?

Oh wait, no that was you over just the past few days.

I do appreciate you putting me in with such top-shelf company. If you're willing to take the time out to follow me around the board just to disrespect me the same way as you have those outstanding gentlemen, I must be doing something right. Dogs don't bark at parked cars.

G.

Show me where I have "disrespected" Harvey and Beenieboi! You can't your lying dumbass.

We have NO WAY of knowing you are doing "something right", because you won't post ANY audio that you have engineered.

Based on that one POS recording you posted that you made nothing but excuses about, it is probably best that you spare our ears anyway.

You know damn well that once you post the crappy recordings you have done that nobody will trust or respect your "advice" every again!

Live the lie Glen.

 

[Ford Van]

And who needs to follow you around? LOL You stick your nose into EVERY fucking thread here!

 

[XLR]

Should boneheads be normalized? Does bonehead normalization just bring thier peak intellignece level up to 0dSU (dumb shit units), or does it compress their boneheadedness and make it even worse?

Now that's funny.

I would definitely use Peak Intelligence Units for the bonehead normalization, as that's a clear an unarguable measurement. I would not use RMS value, as its measurement of intelligence energy varies with the spectrum emphasis of the content.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I've made my ammends. This argument is over.

G.

 

[Joseph Hanna]

Jeez I duuno Glen. Not much wiggle room for debate with you around here. It's either your way or the highway

Period. There is no debate here. Anybody who debates that above position is simply arguing from a position of ignorance of the history and the facts of the whole issue.

NEVER......NEVER did I suggest that there were any sonic advantages in over compressing audio..that said for ANY reason. NEVER. Every time I've posted something here you've twisted it to serve yourself.

What I did take issue with is your blanket assessment that "The Industry" compresses audio because they're boneheads. As I said earlier that's an oversimplification of a complex competitive industry and is simply not true. I live and work here and have enough friends in those positions to take offense.

Further I can't help but take the statement

arguing from a position of ignorance

as a personal shot.

I am indeed a lot of things but ignorant is not one of them.

And one of the facts is that the *vast* majority of the true professionals in this business, the engineers and the real musicians, are against the Wars.

Again the implication is that you are amongst the "True Professionals" and because of my position of ignorance I am not. Position yourself anyway and anywhere you want I don't really care. Please don't attempt to position me because of my opinion. It's simply out of line.

And don't give me any crap about they have to have experience or talent to get to that point. your average professional label producer, A&R guy, or program director today is barely out of college and certainly under the age of 28 and may easily not have had more than one actual job before the one they currently have

.

My opinion about a subject is not an attempt to give you crap. It is merely...my opinion. I'm entitled despite what you may think.


I live and work here in Hollywood and have some very close friends to which you spit venom towards. They are neither boneheads nor ignorant or arrogant and negotiate the waters of this very complicated business brilliantly. All the while fully understanding the ramifications of their actions.