Noise from toms with no bottom head

D

DM1

New member
I'm recording a drummer who only has top heads on his toms. They sound OK, but I can't get them to shut up. His 10" tom pings every time he hits the snare drum, and his 16" floor tom resonates with every kick beat. Both, loud enough to be clearly heard in the OHs.

The ping and rumble are at specific frequencies, so I can notch them out. But obviously that's not desirable. I tried a little felt to dampen, but that kills the drums' tone. And we've tuned both drums through more than a fifth of an octave but the problem persists, so I don't think it's just a sympathetic vibration issue.

I've never experienced this when recording drums with both skins on, which is why I suspect that's the issue. Has anyone else encountered this? Beyond EQ and dampening, is there anything I can try? Or are there ways to dampen that won't kill the tone of a one-headed tom?
 
Hi,

as I'm sure you're aware, then best drum sounds come from:

the kit
tuning
the room
the player
mics.., placement,..preamps..and so on...

so,... how do the drums sound to the drummer in the room while playing? Can he hear the overtone rings as well? (I'm guessing yes, as you say you can hear them in the O/H's).. you're just 1 step ahead of yourself. This issue should have been dealt with before the mics went up. =)

Is putting the bottom heads on an option? Is the drummer against this?

The only thing I can think of is moongels to dampen the head. They don't effect tone that much...

Cheers,

-LIMiT
 
one word: Drummagog (if you are recording rock or anything that doesn't need to be ambiance miking only)
 
hmm...

Why don't you try gating the toms a bit? Maybe EQ and compressing afterwards? Those things go a long way.


Just hard to say without having a clip to listen to. It could just be a matter of controling the tails, but then again, could be more than that.
 
LeeRosario said:
hmm...

Why don't you try gating the toms a bit? Maybe EQ and compressing afterwards? Those things go a long way.
Click to expand...


that's what i initially thought too. but then he mentioned that it was coming thru significantly in the OHs..

surely he hears it too when he's playing? you can try to get rid of it at source, so dampen the heads and get him to sort out the sound. the other option is, assuming toms are used fairly little during the song, is to remove the toms completely (i mean take'em out the fuckin' room) during the verse, then put'em back on during the chorus if he uses them then..
 
MessianicDreams said:
that's what i initially thought too. but then he mentioned that it was coming thru significantly in the OHs..

surely he hears it too when he's playing? you can try to get rid of it at source, so dampen the heads and get him to sort out the sound. the other option is, assuming toms are used fairly little during the song, is to remove the toms completely (i mean take'em out the fuckin' room) during the verse, then put'em back on during the chorus if he uses them then..
Click to expand...


good point. If he's stuck with the recordings, he could try EQ the OHs together with the toms until he has the spot where they work together cohesively. But if there's the chance to record it again, perhaps backing off the OH mics or otherwise getting them somewhere else in relation to the toms.
 
Gating and durmagog aren't options because the problem is in the OHs.

Here's a sample, OH's only

The first 3 hits are the snare with the tom undampened, the next 3, I dampended the 10" tom with my palm. The ring I'm talking about is at 209Hz.

Then the same with the kick drum, first 3 undampened, next 3 I dampened the 16" tom.

Then there's a few seconds of playing to show how the ring comes through even with cymbals and stuff going.

LeeRosario said:
If he's stuck with the recordings
Click to expand...
We haven't tracked anything permanent yet, so if there's something I can do pre-mic to fix the issue, I'm game.

The problem is, dampening the toms enough to get rid of the ring also kills the tone completely. I'm assuming this is because there are only top skins .. and putting bottom skins on isn't an option.

Does hearing the sample shed any light on the matter?
 
Does the ringing sound bad in the room? Put another way, do the drums just plain sound bad? If so, then that's the problem that needs addressing.

If they don't sound bad just listening to them, then you might want to move the OHs to whatever position in the room in which the drums actually sound good. Contrary to popular opinion, "OH" does not have to mean directly "overhead".

G.
 
DM1 said:
Does hearing the sample shed any light on the matter?
Click to expand...

yeah it does. Assuming that these are strictly the overhead tracks, without any type of processing whatsoever, I don't feel it sounds out of the usual. But then again, that's by itself and only in my opinion. A bit tight and packed sounding (70s feel), but I've heard plenty of good sounding modern day records with that kind of drum sound.

The toms sound like toms in my opinion.

So I'm guessing the issue might come in the mixing of other tracks. Any chance you could share another sample clip with all the mics you intend to use?


You see, damping toms is always gonna reflect like that on tape. So it's really hard to suggest an end-all-cure-all fix for the "problem". What may sound like shit to you may sound good to me.


Sometimes you can find yourself using dampening rings custom made trying different materials or premade. That's worth the experimentation.

Other times, you may have to look at the drum itself and assess if there's any problems it might be giving you.

Are the heads out of wack? Are they tunned right? What kind of sticks are you using? How heavy are those sticks? What kind of sticks? How does the drummer play? Is he a smasher? Is he a light player? How accurate can you get him on his hits? What problems is the room giving you? Where do the drums sound best in the room? Do we have mics to swap? Are the mics adding to the problem?

Those are some questions to ask.

I like to ask, do and then write down notes on what I results I got. It might sound slow, but it helps things move quickly the next time around.

For example, in projects that have the budget, some engineers may cycle through several dozen different kicks, toms, snares, etc; until we find the right combination.

I was talking to this engineer one time about this gig he did with Andy wallace in the early 90s. It was for some type of metal band who was being shopped to colombia or something like that. So they had a nice little budget to work with. Andy had the drummer go through about 20 something different kick drums before he said, "ok that's the one!". So in all, they spent about a week getting the drums to sound right.

But that's an extreme case to show how surgical the "perfect" drum sound can get. In the end, the CD I heard sounding fucking amazing, even by todays standards.

But on budget, the tunning can make the difference, man. So it's really about your ear. The most primative thing that still works is going up to the kit with a drum key and a drum stick.

Trying different heads or trying to predetermine how a certain type of head will sound in that specific room can make a big difference too. So if it takes 8 hours putting just the right amount of tape/ring/toilet paper/cotton, whatever be the case, then it will probably be worth your time. If you have that time.



But so far, just listening to that one sample, dosn't sound half bad to me. :)
 
Last edited:
IMO the ring doesnt sound bad
and if you say dampening them enough to get rid of the ring kills the tone
then dampen them a little to make the ring slightly less and use that?
 
it may be that the drums are out of tune. i was recording last week when after a few takes, i noticed my snare drum had an awful sustained snare buzz. i spent about a half an hour tuning both heads on the snare and adjusting the snare strainer, the sound was still there. i then noticed that the batter head on my rack tom was slightly out of tune. after an eight turn of one tension rod on the tom, the awful snare buzz went a way. even if the individual drum is in tune, all the drums still have to be in tune with each other.
 
funkydrummer said:
all the drums still have to be in tune with each other.
Click to expand...


well think in terms of the key in which the song is in. If you can determine that, you can hopefully do your best to tune within triads of that key.


Also, it's always better to tune your drums a little looser for a fatter sound to tape. It's easier to pitch up than it is to pitch down in production.
 
I have limited knowledge about micing drums and tuning drums or really how to eliminate that ring youre getting from your toms. But I can tell you that in my opinion , if you can tune the drums to the song well enough , as leerosario said , in triads , it would compliment the other instruments and I think from what I heard , it would be hard to hear in the mix. I guess I'm just trying to shed some positive light on what youre thinking is screwing up your production. Maybe the ringing can be used to your advantage if tuned correctly , ya never know? :)
 
If you happen to hear the toms ringing in the mix, which you probably wont but if you do, just go with it. I love those little squeaks and rattles that sneak into the mix, you can get some spooky sounds out of drums
 
Thanks for all the thoughts ... After reading everything (especially Lee's lengthy post,) I think I'm probably being overly-critical. Expecting perfection, which is usually impossible anway :)

Frankly, I think I've spent so long working with samples and electronic drums that I'd forgotten drum kits aren't always supposed to sound like BFD.


SouthSIDE Glen said:
Does the ringing sound bad in the room?
Click to expand...
That's the crux of the matter right there: it doesn't sound bad. It's actually musical (and like Erockrazor and Bulls suggested, will probably disappear in the mix with the right tuning.) But the fact that I kept noticing it made me think I should address it.

I'll try tuning the toms in key, as suggested.


nefas said:
Could it be from a Noisy Lugs?
Click to expand...
It's definitely the skin, but thanks for the great link. Another drummer I work with has that exact problem, and I didn't realize you could stuff cotton in the lugs to calm the rattle. Can't wait to tell him.


LeeRosario said:
I like to ask, do and then write down notes on what I results I got. It might sound slow, but it helps things move quickly the next time around.
Click to expand...
Everything you wrote, and particularly this, is great advice. Thank you.

LeeRosario said:
So in all, they spent about a week getting the drums to sound right
Click to expand...
:eek:


[quote='funkydrummer"]even if the individual drum is in tune, all the drums still have to be in tune with each other.[/quote]When you say "in tune with each other," do you mean "tuned in a complimentary way?" Or is there something more technical to full-kit tuning? I didn't think there were any rules regarding the relative tuning of drums within a kit, beyond "do what fits the song."


Anyway, thanks again for all the help! I'll post a clip when I get the instruments recorded so we can play a game of "find the tom ping."

-Doug
 
Well that drum tone can work for modern music, listen to Copeland's In Motion or He Is Legend's Suck Out the Poison...they got a throwback sound on the toms even with huge snares and kicks.

Anyways, is that what you want? That kind of Fleetwood Mac sound? If so, get some Moongel and stick a little bit on the edges. I can assure you it's not going to kill the tone of the drums but it will reduce the sympathetic vibration which is causing ringing.

I thought personally the drums were a little dead for my tastes...and I've found that to be the case when either using no bottom heads or having any muffling on the bottom heads. One neat trick I found last time I recorded was to stick a bunch of heavy blankets UNDERNEATH the toms. I put a huge heavy blanket over the kick to isolate the microphone and I noticed it shortened the sustain of the rack tom, even though the blanket was a foot away. I tried it on the floor toms and sure enough, it shortened the sustain but left the ring. Great for when you're playing fast punk music but need a punchy tom with quick decay.

If you want to keep the sustain but tame the ring, apply a little muffling (not foam but Moongel) to the top head...if you want to keep the ring but shorten the sustain, muffle the bottom head (easiest way is with sound absorption UNDER the tom).

Also, it sounded like the crash cymbal on the left was too close to the mics and the image of the it was skewed with the kick to the right and snare to the left. You might want to play with the positioning if you want them centered (i.e. check this page out).
 
DM1 said:
When you say "in tune with each other," do you mean "tuned in a complimentary way?" Or is there something more technical to full-kit tuning? I didn't think there were any rules regarding the relative tuning of drums within a kit, beyond "do what fits the song."
Click to expand...

yes, i mean tune them in a complimentary way. the most common intervals are 3rds, 4ths, or 5ths. i read that terry bozzio tunes his kit to a diatonic scale.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top