No Such Thing

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twist

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I'm ready to start recording to my computer. You've all convinced me it's the way to go, and not to difficult to achieve for what I need. I record as a one man band with a drum machine, so I really only need a sound card with two inputs.

And I want to be able to record 16 or more tracks, and store the songs as data on a CD, so a project could be set aside until a later date.

And I could burn CDs of finished projects right there on the computer without having to spend extra for a standalone CD recorder.
Even powerful editing capabilities built right in.

Sounds perfect!

Only problem is, I'd really rather MIX with knobs than with a mouse. That would mean a soundcard with 16 outputs minimum, out to a mixer (16 ch minimum), back into the souncard as a stereo mix to be burned to a CD.
Well, I'm sure you all know, there are no 16 channel soundcards out there. Maybe I could use 2 eight channel soundcards, and I almost went for it when I suddenly thought "WAIT.....STOP THE MADNESS!"

This can't be right..... is anybody else out there trying to deal with this, or is this a really dumb idea. I have never read anything here about anybody else trying to do it this way, which makes me question my own sanity.

Should I surrender to the mouse and save myself a bunch of cash?


Twist
 
I understand your frustration. I use Cubase and absolutely love it, but I admit that I'd rather twist knobs and use faders...it just feels better. But relax, there are solutions to this problem. I'd suggest looking into a mixing interface such as...

The Event EZ bus (connects via USB).
www.event1.com

The whole Ensoniq PARIS system uses a mixing surface. I'm not sure of their web address.

Tascam makes something called the US-428 which serves as a workstation controller. It also goes through the USB port.
www.tascam.com

There are a lot of them out there that you can use via midi. Look around the web on some of the decent music stores and you'll find some cool stuff.

I have to tell you that I haven't used any of them, so I don't know that much about the implementation of them in your studio. But rest assured, these things exist.
 
C,

I checked out the Tascam when it first came out. It's not really quite the same as a real mixer, and not 16 channels either. Last I heard, USB was limited to 4 channels of audio. But thanks, I will check out some of the others, too.

Twist
 
C,

I checked out the Tascam when it first came out. It's not really quite the same as a real mixer, and not 16 channels either. Last I heard, USB was limited to 4 channels of audio. But thanks, I will check out some of the others, too.

Twist
 
EZbus

I just checked out that Event EZbus. If you're really just interested in having knobs for mixing you can just use it as a control surface and never have any audio run through it at all. Check out the Control Surface section of the Specs page - it has presets for controlling some of the most popular recording software packages.

I'm getting along with mouse mixing in Logic Audio better than I have in any other software I've tried, but this EZbus has my attention - real knobs and faders would be nice.
 
Diragor,

If I understand you correctly, now that makes sense. Instead of trying to get 16 tracks of audio out of the computer for mixing, the control surface manipulates the software on the computer, so you would only need a stereo out from your soundcard to monitor. It's becoming clearer now. I'm glad I asked before I bought!

Thanks

Twist
 
Anyone found a control surface that isn't a soundcard as well? The audio part on both the Event and Tascam are limited to 48kHz sample rate, which isn't that bad but why involve the recording in the same box? I just want to have faders and knobs for my tracks...
 
They exist, but don't work...

I have been watching and looking for a hardware solution myself. A short history reads like this

Peavey/Cakewalk StudioMix: Great idea, but a little too "consumer". Worked only with cakewalk, and even so, was a "light" solution. Extra Points for motorized faders. Never heard from anyone who was very happy with it.

Tascam 428 - Works in a fashion but again hads limited application support, and in the apps it does support, mant compromises have been made. Ever wonder why you haven't seen any reviews? I bet its because magazines don't like to publish unfavorable ones (it alienates advertisers).

EZ-Bus - Looks good, but they're having trouble getting it out the door. I have a feeling they're experiencing "428 syndrome".

Steinberg Houston: My current favorite, if it works, I'll switch to cubase (I use Cake currently). Looks really neat, but I can't seem to find anything indicating when I can get my hands on one.

PARIS: Looks great, but too rich for my blood ($4k for a "basic" setup). And its proprietary.

Digital Mixers: Through MMC, one can conrol things in the software, but this is also a trickly thing, and quickly becomes expensive. I was considering going to an 01v/ADAT (card) setup, but some conversations with users convinced me it wasn't quite what I was looking for.

ProTools has this all worked out, but again, its too much moolah.

My money is on the next generation of digital mixers solving this "control surface" problem, but I haven't been able to find anything satisfactory (for less than $10k) yet, and I have looked.

If anyone has found one let me know, I'll get one tomorrow.
 
I use PARIS and I love it. I'm on my 12th full length CD using this system. It has a control surface that allows you to mix with faders and knobs. The coolest thing is that it's scalable. If you can only afford bundle #1, no problem. You can upgrade from bundle 1 to 2 as you are able to afford, or 2 to 3. 128 tracks, VST/DX compatible, cross platform (works on PC or MAC), full editing, stable software, killer converters, interface designed by Stephen St. Croix.

What more do you want?

p.s. It's not 4k for bundle #1, it's a little over a grand. It's 4k for the deluxe bundle #3.

Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com
 
Maybe I should clarify my question... I meant affordable control surface. I'm aware of the "motor mix" and "sac-2k" and they are really cool with their motorised faders and programmable whatschmacallits but they're also freakishly expensive...
 
I stand corrected...

Sorry about my errors in describing Paris, I may look into it.
 
Affordable not coming soon...

I don't think we'll be seeing one of those for a while. Perhaps the 428 will get its kinks worked out, but it seems like it failed to capture the market necessary to do so.

Unfortunately I am having more and more trouble finding anything in this hobby that's "affordable". When I first started, I figured "Cool. Computer recording. I'll get cake, plug it into the soundblaster, and make a record." Wrong. Its true that the stuff is less expensive than ever before, but its still all expensive. And it take a good deal of gear just to get a good signal path built, and a good deal of dough to build a capable computer recording setup. Even a minimal rig of mixer, card, mic and software will be close to a grand, not counting the computer.

I have a blast with it, but if I had known the real costs when I got started I might have thought twice. There is also a heck of a learning curve.


Try and find a post that reads "radio shack mic into a porta-studio and it sounds great" .

This actually would make a good thread - "best bang for the buck" or something like that. I have a feeling the RNC would have it locked up though.
 
Mixer control

One possibility is to pick up a TASCAM TMD-1000 (digital mixer)from ebay for as low as $350. On the TASCAM bb, there is a genius from Germany who has worked out some automation programs that allow you to control Emagic software from the TMD. His links can be found in "Tips III" thread on the TASCAM bb. Here is a link to one thread: www.tascambbs.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000908.html
. TASCAM also makes a PCI822 soundcard that has 8 I/O TDIF, MIDI in out & thru, and BNC, I think.
Chuck
 
Only problem is, I'd really rather MIX with knobs than with a mouse.
Click to expand...

why not draw your volumes?? in Cakewalk you can draw it, in Nuendo you can draw it, in Protools you can draw it!!

way to go - new millenium ? OK??

cheers
john
 
I've seen the MIDI controllers and the Tascam unit, and they are less expensive than the mixer alternative, but it all seems like a compromise. The MIDI controllers for example will still require a good deal of mousing for effects and knobs, and the Tacam unit, while it supports "scene" automation, doesn't support the whole enchillada.

Without automated faders, it gets very confusing as to the status on which is right (DAW or board), in which case, its better to depend on what the screen is showing you. Of these compromises, the Studiomix seems the best (with motorized faders and relatively good application integration), but its less than stellar sales record should serve as some indication of its usefulness.

Envelopes will do what is needed, as will the canned automation in most software, but that's still working with a mouse. Its actually something i'm trying to get used to, but I would still like to have a fully realized control surface.
 
Isn't anybody listening? PARIS! It has all the stuff you want for a little over a grand.

www.emu.com

I'm not affiliated with e-mu in any way, I just know that it rocks.

Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com
 
dude,

mixers add more noise, mixers deteriorate the sound, and mixers cost money.

It is the bomb to mix a 30-45 track song with a mouse. Increments of 0.1 db, extreme accuracy, save your settings and come back they are still there, no extra noise.

The money you save will get you that mic pre or mic you've been lusting after.

Also, you know what instrument goes to which fader, cause you get to NAME them. You aint limited to 16 tracks either

Wow, a mouse beats a mixer hands down.
 
Getting back to twists original question, check
out ola's link to Peavy. That thing looks like
its what you are looking for.
 
Hey Thanks guys,

All excellent advice. That oughtta keep me busy with research for a while.

One thing that's not really clear to me with the EZ bus, or other control surfaces, are you limited to controling 8 tracks in software (corresponding to the eight faders of the EZ bus), or can you control as many tracks as you want at mixdown, say in groups of eight? Otherwise, it's still only an 8 track.

Thanks again,
Twist
 
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