No Respect!

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13th_Omen

13th_Omen

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I guess I just wanted to let off a little steam! Here's the situation:

I was out having a beer the other day and started talking to this dude who claimed to have his own project studio. He started listing off his gear (Pro Tools, a U47, some keyboards). Right off the bat I had to ask what kind of music he has been recording and the answer was what I expected, rap & hip-hop. Ok, so I just went ahead and said "Oh, well I really don't have any experience doing that kind of music... ever try micing a real drum kit?"

I think he thought I was insulting his work. Then his buddy gave me the same line I always get when I talk about either rap, hip-hop, or techno...

"Yeah, but you still have to respect the amount of talent involved!"

No I don't! The only real instruments he is recording is vocals and keyboard. Now how difficult is that? I don't see why someone couldn't just do that with a four-track and get good results! I'm not trying to put anyone down, but seriously... if someone went to his studio to do like a rock song of some sort he would be dumfounded! "Oh, I need to mic a whole drum kit??"

I'm sorry, unless you have done a whole band with decent results I really don't think you have earned my respect.

:o Whew!

Sorry if I pissed anybody off.. just my opinion. Done venting!
 
13th_Omen said:
I don't see why someone couldn't just do that with a four-track and get good results!
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I'll be waiting for your professional sounding rap/hip hop track recorded on a 4 track in the mp3 clinic.


I'm not trying to put anyone down, but seriously... if someone went to his studio to do like a rock song of some sort he would be dumfounded! "Oh, I need to mic a whole drum kit??"
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Probably the same way you would feel if someone wanted to record a rap song in your studio.

I personally don't care for rap, but I can respect the talent that goes in to making it. I wouldn't have a clue what to do with all those samplers/keyboards/whatever the hell they use :)

travis
 
Most "Project Studios" are geared for certain styles of music and cater to that same type of musicians.

I see an art to producing both styles of music, even if I prefer one over the other.



Rap and Rock are Apples and Oranges...


but they are still both fruit.
 
hmmm

Youre right about micing instruments.. MOst hip hop cats dont have much experience with that..

But when it comes time to mix.. Its not much different. Common sense should tell you that.

"The only real instruments he is recording is vocals and keyboard."

Not so in most cases.
Do you have any idea how complex samples can be? ONes with other instruments behind them that need to be notched out or under.. Then the same sample patched to another fader to be filtered to pull a bassline up.. But still trying to avoid phasing..

Any ONE sample can have more instruments then your entire band.. Then add to that vox, drum sequences, keyboards, basses etc.. & you're talking about a complex mix.

Your other comments..

"if someone went to his studio to do like a rock song of some sort he would be dumfounded! "Oh, I need to mic a whole drum kit??""

Maybe so, I don't know him.. But so what, hes not running a rock studio. If someone came to your spot to do modern hip hop you may be like "huh? I need to have the bassline thats way low in that sample up front with none of the other instruments heard? Thats not possible!" Or "huh? you want me to make those stiff robotic drums sound live & played by a human?"
 
13th_Omen said:
I'm sorry, unless you have done a whole band with decent results I really don't think you have earned my respect.
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That's kind of insulting. We each do what we need to do. We don't have to be all things to all people.

I could just as easily say you don't have my respect until you've successfully recorded a symphony orchestra and a choir with a pipe organ. Or a crappysingin young girl and made her sound like a million bucks. Or a cartoon soundtrack with music, voices, and special effects.

There's a lot of different skills involved in what we do. It's probably more important to master (no pun intended) one or two than to do all of them passably.

Peace,

Daf
 
When I know I have a rap/hiphop client coming in, I generally breathe a sigh of relief because I know it's going to be an easy session.

I keep saying to myself: "Why don't I just show these guys how to do it themselves?"

But then I wouldn't have any more of the cake sessions to give my brain a rest. :D
 
.

^Thats interesting. I'd be interested in hearing some of the stuff you've recorded & the caliber of artist.
 
13th_Omen,

Everytime I read someone make such comments it really pisses me off. What pisses me off is the closed mindedness and the short sightedness of such comments. It's kind of like saying that computer graphic artists aren't really artists at all since they don't make their own paints, and just draw stuff on the computer or use scanned in objects :rolleyes:

Many such project studio operators/engineers don't just sit there and have a band or some artist walk in and "just" set up mics and "just" hit record (see how someone can twist things?). These guys are also composers, arrangers, poets and performers. And they have to wear all these hats objectively.

From engineering standpoint it might not be as difficult to just hook up a keyboard to the line in on the mixer and hit record as it would be to set up mics for a drum kit, but it takes countless hours to program those sounds on the synths/samplers for them to work in full mixes in the first place! And here you have those same issues. You program a nice fat patch that sounds great on it's own, but doesn't necessarily sit well in the mix, so you have to develop the skills of programing sounds with the full mix in mind, for example.

Cusetown has already mentioned the issues with isolating sounds in samples and phasing issues with basslines, so I won't repeat.

Different aspects of music production have their own issues and headaches and rewards. You can't just make blanket statements like "if you can't mic a real drum kit, then I don't respect you". In the end the average listener doesn't give a rat's ass how the record was done, they only care about whether it sounds good, or moves them in some way.

From your post I gather that you don't care for hip-hop and rap and that's OK but don't put it down as something "lesser" than what you like or do. We all have our tastes. When I was young I had the same snotty attitude pretty much about everything other than classical music and if you couldn't play Liszt's Transcendental Etudes then you were not really a musician... I mean everyone can scream and play a couple of distorted chords on the guitar... right? But that was years ago... since then I've learned to appreciate all kinds of music and have realised that no matter what the genre is, it takes an extraordinary amount of talent and hard work to achieve decent results.

My 2 cents...
 
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I dont necessarily like that style of music either, but I still have respect for people who create music out of anything. Wether its acoustic instruments or a sampled beat, it is still recording music. And most pro rap studios that produce stuff today has this ungodly amount of bass. I just wish I could do that with what I have.
 
I guess that's where I keep screwing up.

I thought recording was supposed to be about the music...not about the process of creating and recording it.

I guess that's why you see so many discussions about what type brushes DaVinci used and what brand of typewriter made Hemingway so good.
 
13th Omen, it sounds like you were a bit jealous of his gear. You can't dismiss a genre of music as not viable simply because you don't like it. I'm not trying to hassle you or anything, but Hip Hop has good and bad stuff, and it has artists who have lots of talent, and artists who have no talent - just like every other music genre.

________________
Post indie electronic
Meriphew
www.meriphew.com
 
13th_Omen said:
I think he thought I was insulting his work. Then his buddy gave me the same line I always get when I talk about either rap, hip-hop, or techno...

"Yeah, but you still have to respect the amount of talent involved!"

No I don't!
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You were insulting his work. Luckily, he doesn't need your respect, as you don't need his or mine.

It's always the guys who don't track/mix hip-hop who know just how easy it is, and what exactly is involved.

It's always the guys who don't listen to the music who know just how much it sucks.

It's always the guys who can't afford and have never used limiters who know just how much better normalizers are.

You're allowed to not like hip-hop. Or pop. Or skunk-screamo. Or black metal. Good for you. Have a beer. It'll help the turd go down.
 
69ShadesofRed said:
From engineering standpoint it might not be as difficult to just hook up a keyboard to the line in on the mixer and hit record as it would be to set up mics for a drum kit.
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This is at least what I was refering to. Look, mic'ing up drum kits is a pain in the arse. Trying to make sure everyone is satisfied with their headphone mix is even a pain. Positioning the mic properly takes time. On the other hand, when I have rap/hip-hop artists in here, it's a lot like recording someone who's doing karaoke.

I'm sure they sweat bullets arranging all those samples in fruity loops before they get here; less work for me is good. :D

It's kind of like saying that computer graphic artists aren't really artists at all since they don't make their own paints, and just draw stuff on the computer or use scanned in objects :rolleyes:
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That's a good point. I'm making note of that one.

Just like with anything, good rap/hiphop takes talent, obviously. Unfortunately, my perspective doesn't give me much of an appreciation for it. To me, it's about as artful as bathroom stall grafiti. Every other word is "Bitch" this and/or "bitch" that. :D Lots of violence, hotstility, and references to using deadly weapons to end the lives of people with dreams, families and people who love them.

It's a shame. I don't have any respect for that particular brand of rap. Bunch of pottymouthed, hate-filled, self-absorbed crap if you ask me.
 
I knew as soon as I hit the send button that I was going to get a lot of criticism about my comments.. I may be blunt but not blind. I have to admit, I would like to have some of the gear he has, but I feel he is wasting it!! You're right, I really don't like that style of music, but I don't like country either.. and I'm not gonna rag on Billy-Bob just because of the style of music he records. The issue at hand is more about the use of REAL instruments and REAL musicians. Sure, some rappers have talent, I can't deny that, just like some country, etc. I just (personally) appreciate it when real acoustic instruments are played with human hands and recorded, capuring the art of the musicians. ANYONE can make drum loops.. ANYONE can paint.. some are just better or worse at either. NOT ANYONE can play guitar, or drums, etc.
 
lol..

Now youre talkin about music, not recording.. It sounds like youre jealous because hes making music you dont like with gear you wish you had.

& yes, anyone can play guitar or drums. Just like anything else. They may suck, but with much time & practice....

Give a monkey some sticks & a drum set & he'll go to work.. It may sound like ass, but he'll get alot further than he would sitting down in front of a sampler & sequencer!
 
I can kinda see where 13thomen is coming from here. If a rapper aproached me about recording all I would have to do is lay down hit beats which are prerecorded and set up one microphone to record his vocals. I guess that's how most local rappers are anyway. The bigger known rappers probably have all the midi stuff bounced to it's own track, so that you would have a kick track (such as the infamous 808) and a snare track and a hats track, etc. So bigger budget (we're talking Korg Triton, other modules, etc) could be an equally complicated mixing process as mixing a rock album. The local guys that are doing beats with stuff like fruity loops usually have a stereo mix ready to go (although, you could theoretically bounce each track down to a wave file and then mix separate tracks) and all I have to do is lay down the stereo mix and like I said put up a vocal mic.

I'm not sure if I support 13thomen argument here or the rapper's argument. I'm not really qualified to answer that as I know little about the production of major label rap music.

However, on a small local scale where someone has a stereo track of recorded beats I would definitely have to say the recording process for me is much easier and takes less skill than a rock act.
 
About 40 years ago four guys with little gear took the world by storm. All they had were three beat up guitars and a simple drum kit. They were from the street and they were hungry. The adults didn't get it, but the kids(like me) ate it up with a spoon. 40 years later and the Beatles are still the standard by which all rock and roll is measured(whether you care to admit it or not). Of course there is more to the story, but 3 guitars and a sickly drum set was a monstrous springboard from which to jump. And it worked.

I hate rap, hip-hop, whatever but I can appreciate what it means. I don't get the whole "white suburban kids trying to be black" thing but that's probably what people said about us Beatle fans(Stones, Animals, etc.).

More than the music I deplore the lifestyle. It's difficult to separate the music from the lifestyle, but back to the music.

When you decide to become an artist and express yourself in your music, poetry, whatever, as many people will like your stuff as hate you. And that is fine, that is the risk you take as an artist. I think you cross the line when you take a "holier than thou" attitude and disregard a style as no-talent because you don't like it.

I repeat, I cannot stand rap and hip-hop but I can appreciate it. A lot of it is repetetive and frankly it all sounds the same to me, but it's massive popularity says something for the genre. Onstage you can pull out all of the stops, I only ask that they straighten out their acts offstage.(Not all but most).

So 13th_Omen, lighten up and respect the art even if it clashes with your sensibilities.
 
I drive musclecars. I love a V8 engine. The majority of the "car people" in the western states drive buzzy little 4-cylinder Hondas with biplanes bolted to the trunk. I don't care for them. BUT, I can respect their commitment to their "car culture." And, sometimes someone actually builds a fast one.

Same with music.

As far as it being "easy," well, as a drummer, I used to HATE drum machines and loops. Couldn't stand them. Would have liked to beat the crap out of the likes of Phil Collins for using them (he actually had to kind of "re-learn" how to play drums for the Queen's Golden Jubilee). Later, when I had an apartment instead of my own house, I had to resort to drum machines to make my recordings. It was NOT an easy feat. To someone who's used to live drums, the DR-770 was a hugely frustrating machine. Software was even worse.

A lot of rock music is pretty "potty-mouthed" and angry too.

AND...a lot of rock artists "all sound the same." As well as a lot of country artists, ska artists, DJs, and especially folk singers!



$0.02
 
ChristopherM:

Point taken.

And the end result is ... It's all the same. Tom Petty sounds like Roger McGuinn ... AC/DC sounds like Slade... 50 cent sounds like Busta Rhymes...whatever. Art is art.

Rock On!
Rap On!
Folk On!
 
The only real music is polka.

If you're not recording polka you don't have my respect.

You really need my respect.

Really, you do.

Blah blah blah zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz,

Chris
 
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