No, it’s not all in the fingers.

[famous beagle]

I’m not saying it’s 5% of the sound. I’m saying it’s 5% of the tone.

Thanks for the clarification.

What I'm (and I think a few others) saying is that you can't really separate the tone from the style or sound --- especially when you're talking about someone's tone in particular. (See my next response for more on this.)

I think that it would help the discussion if you were a little more specific about your original post. From your wording, I'm inferring that someone was asking something like, "Does anyone know what amp X used on the X album?" And then someone said, "Tone is all in your fingers." But it would be nice to hear the specifics.

 

[famous beagle]

Talking about gear sound.

Use yourself as an example. Your equipment. Something where you know the hardware. Not watching a show.

The sound of the equipment CAN be characterized only with a singe chord. Style has nothing to do with it.

Absolutely not, IMHO.

A single chord? Ok, let's work with that.

What if I pick near the bridge? What if I pick near the neck?
What if I pick very lightly? What if I really dig in?
What if my fretting is very precise, so that every note is allowed to ring? What if my fretting is very sloppy, so that not all the notes are allowed to freely ring?

The tone/sound (I don't really think you can specify a difference in this situation) will change significantly, yet the gear, nor the settings, hasn't changed at all. Only the player's technique has.

The thing is that we, as a listener --- especially if we're not in the room watching a player play --- can't tell what's the equipment's "tone" or "sound" and what's something else. We may hear a very thin, trebly sound, and we may intuit "Oh, that's heavily EQ'ed. He must have the bass totally rolled off on his amp and the treble turned up." Or maybe we think it was EQ'ed at the desk during mixdown to sound like that. But it could have also been that he just strummed very near the bridge.

This is why I don't think you can separate tone from sound or style. There are simply too many variables. It's like chaos theory. Even you and I are going to hear one person's tone differently in the same room at the same exact time simply because we're standing in different places in the room. The list of variables that exist in the sound we hear when someone play an instrument is simply staggering.

Simplify it even further: What about picking the open high E string only?

Do you think, all else being equal --- amp settings, guitar, pick, etc. --- we'd be able to hear the difference between, say, SRV doing that vs., say, Paul Gilbert?

I would think that --- assuming you didn't give them any direction --- it would likely be clear as day. Granted, if they both worked together and tried to match their picking technique, etc., the sound would be much more similar. But that's not what happens in the real world at all.

And this is exactly why, to circle back around, many people say things like "tone is in the fingers." It's simply because if I (I'm a skilled musician) got on SRV's rig with his guitar/pick/etc., I'd still sound like an imposter. I might not sound bad, but I don't think too many people --- much less guitar players --- would have trouble hearing the difference between me playing a lick and SRV playing it through the same rig.

Again, though, I don't think it's correct to say "tone is in the fingers" and leave it at that. The rig obviously makes a huge difference. You're obviously not going to get a good Metallica tone from an acoustic through a Pignose. But, IMHO, "the fingers" make a huge difference as well --- though not as much as the rig. It's definitely a subtler thing, but that doesn't mean it's 5%, IMHO.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Do you think, all else being equal --- amp settings, guitar, pick, etc. --- we'd be able to hear the difference between, say, SRV doing that vs., say, Paul Gilbert?

Are you having them play the same thing, to sound the same?

If they each had 3 chords to play, and had to copy the others performance, it would sound the same. They could mimic each other perfectly with the same equipment.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

I would think that --- assuming you didn't give them any direction ---

NoNONO

Those aren't the rules. I tell them what to play and how(thats sheet music). If they are great players they must accurately play the piece.

Paul Gilbert could easily play any 3 chords the same way as Stevie on any piece of equip. The inverse is also true. Both are masters of the force.

 

[rob aylestone]

Lazer - We've tried to explain, and used plenty of examples. Are you really suggesting that every musician in the world could sound the same as another? It's ridiculous. Well - actually it could happen. If I walked up to a Hammond C3/B3 ready for the name to sit down and play, and I pressed the key down, and held one note. For that note length, we'd sound exactly the same. Start to join notes up, and differences would show.

My collaborator is a concert pianist, and can tell who is playing on a recording. Some are pianos in venues he has played in and they are playing the same piece of music, but he knows. If I cannot tell, but he can - does that make mew wrong, or him wrong? To me, they sound like the same thing. To him they clearly have some kind of fingerprint. He is a better musician than me.

Look at some of the videos on you tube and watch fingers - clearly you just don't understand playing in any depth. I'm sorry, but what you say just shouts loud and clear that you may be a great recordist, but you don't understand playing. I hope you're just winding us up (you're doing a great job) because to lots of contributors here - we cannot understand why you persist with the crazy thinking on this. To us, it's so obvious. Unless I can play exactly like somebody else does, I won't sound like them, and we're not talking about basic chords or a melody line - but how they are played. You seem to think that if it's an A, then anybody's A sounds the same and they simply don't.

I don't think we can ever agree on this. We both believe our own viewpoint. This is fine, but as we won't convince you, or you us, shall we call it a draw?

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

No, it is no draw.
If someone wanted to cover Green Day and wanted to sound like 'When I come around'. They could benefit greatly from knowing what equipment was used to play it. The 4 chords G,D,Em,C are simply laid out across the time frame and easy to reproduce. You could make a near exact copy with the gear information.
Yes, anybody can sound just like it. So , No, it is not ridiculous.

You have yet to identify anything that they are doing different to cause the source sound to change?

 

[rob aylestone]

No - you're simply being awkward and ignoring everyone - believe this rubbish if you wish. I'm out. Best you get recording and put these expensive guys out of a job. When you're covering one of these people, and sounds as good - I'll cheerfully shout loudly I was wrong. I shan't hold my breath though.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Make it a test.

Don't use licks or riffs or anything complex as an example . Instead give the players a guide to sound like. Let them use your equipment used to make the guide to reproduce it(same settings and all). Let me hear the difference in sound.

 

[mjbphotos]

No, it is no draw.
If someone wanted to cover Green Day and wanted to sound like 'When I come around'. They could benefit greatly from knowing what equipment was used to play it. The 4 chords G,D,Em,C are simply laid out across the time frame and easy to reproduce. You could make a near exact copy with the gear information.
Yes, anybody can sound just like it. So , No, it is not ridiculous.

You have yet to identify anything that they are doing different to cause the source sound to change?

Fuck, any player whose played for 2 years can sound like Green Day, why don't you pick some guitar music that actually sounds unique?

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Fuck, any player whose played for 2 years can sound like Green Day, why don't you pick some guitar music that actually sounds unique?

Yeah Fuck them assholes..

Wait a minute.

' that actually sound unique?' ...........So you are saying they sound the same regardless of gear...

Man, that is a whole new category in this argument.

 

[famous beagle]

Make it a test.

Don't use licks or riffs or anything complex as an example . Instead give the players a guide to sound like. Let them use your equipment used to make the guide to reproduce it(same settings and all). Let me hear the difference in sound.

See, but that's not the real world you're describing. No one releases albums of themselves playing a strict set of chords to be executed an exact way based on some directions given by the Tone Matching Society. What you're trying to do is limit the number of variables that contribute to someone's sound or tone. And those variables are exactly what we love about a certain player's sound/tone. The devil is in the details.

But, in essence, by making these stipulations --- either saying they have to play something very simple or they have to be a very skilled player attempting to imitate someone else --- you're basically admitting that "the fingers" (i.e., technique) makes a difference. Otherwise, an intermediate player playing on SRV's rig would sound just like him.

In other words, in order to sound the most like David Gilmour that I can, I would not only want to use the gear he uses, but I also need to study his technique and practice imitating that, because that's also a big factor in his tone. I simply don't know how you can argue with that.

 

[famous beagle]

You have yet to identify anything that they are doing different to cause the source sound to change?

Did you not see this from my earlier post?

What if I pick near the bridge? What if I pick near the neck?
What if I pick very lightly? What if I really dig in?
What if my fretting is very precise, so that every note is allowed to ring? What if my fretting is very sloppy, so that not all the notes are allowed to freely ring?

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

those variables are exactly what we love about a certain player's sound/tone. The devil is in the details.

Now, its the devil that you love?

You are playing hard to get huh..I knew a woman like that.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

What if I pick near the bridge? What if I pick near the neck?
What if I pick very lightly? What if I really dig in?
What if my fretting is very precise, so that every note is allowed to ring? What if my fretting is very sloppy, so that not all the notes are allowed to freely ring?

No

 

[famous beagle]

No

I don't know what this means.

So, what are you saying, exactly?

Let's say SRV (a very skilled player with a desirable tone) plays a blues lick on his rig (when he was alive, obviously). Then he hands the guitar to Paul Gilbert (another very skilled but different player), and he plays the same exact lick, doing his best to sound the same.

Are you telling me you think they'd be indecipherable?

Surely you can't think that.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Are you telling me you think they'd be indecipherable?

Surely you can't think that.

Yes, I do.

If the piece were practiced one could play it exactly. Or close enough.

Haven't you been in a band before? We switched instruments all the time. Sometimes the others were better on drums or keys or guitar or bass for a song.

I never remember the Marshall suddenly sounding like a Fender because of pick attack.

Even the artist themselves cannot reproduce the album cut 100 % every time. There is a close enough. That is where you compare the equipment.

 

[famous beagle]

If the piece were practiced one could play it exactly. Or close enough.

Haven't you been in a band before? We switched instruments all the time. Sometimes the others were better on drums or keys or guitar or bass for a song.

I never remember the Marshall suddenly sounding like a Fender because of pick attack.

Even the artist themselves cannot reproduce the album cut 100 % every time. There is a close enough. That is where you compare the equipment.

Notice the bold above. That's "the fingers" right there. That's the technique. That's the study. Give a beginner or even an intermediate player SRV's rig and see how long it is until he can begin to really produce a similar tone --- one that would fool people when heard back to back.

No one is claiming that a Marshall is going to sound like a Fender because of pick attack. We're saying that one person is still going to sound like that same person whether they're playing on a Marshall or a Fender.

Aside from that, "close enough" is entirely subjective. I'm starting to think that you and I have a very different idea of what "close enough" is.

Earlier, CrowsofFritz made a statement distinguishing between tone and sound:

"I’m not saying it’s 5% of the sound. I’m saying it’s 5% of the tone."

Maybe that lies at the heart of the issue. What exactly is the difference to you (or Crows) in this discussion?

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

No Yeah, there is no difference .

Like if I open G tune my Strat. I can throw McDonalds wrappers at it, and it makes the same sound.

 

[famous beagle]

Ok. I sensed I was possibly being trolled earlier, but now there's no doubt.

Have a good weekend.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Hex-a-pickup.

My mind separates what the artist does, his styling and articulations, from the gear. At some level the artist is an individual , but the equipment is also iconic.