Next Step, Comments or Advice on Project Studio

[promesis]

My Intent :--------------------------
Live single room recording of my instrumental jazz/rock/progressive "mathrock" trio. Kind of King Crimson / Mahavishnu Orchestra / Canterbury / RIO / meets Bad Brains...

Instrumentation and Rigs :
Electric 6 string guitar :
vintage Marshall JMP-100 Head w/2 4x12" cabs / Guitar Synth

Electric 6 string bass :
Eden WT800B Bass Amplifier w/Eden D410XLT on top and vintage 70s Sunn 2x15"

Yamaha Studio Series Drums :
k, Snare, 4 toms, 2 chinas, 2 sets of hit hats, 2 splashes, ice bell, ride, 2 crashes






My Recording Set Up : [chime in whenever]----------------------------

JBL LSR4328P Monitors : [replaced Event 20/20P]
Event 20/20 S250 Sub-Woofer : [not using this - if only to check sub frequencies]

Mackie 32/8 Mixing Board

Kurzweil Rumour
TC Electronics M-ONE
Lexicon MPX 550
[4] FMR RNC
Rane G4 Quad Gate
Ross Stereo Graphic EQ : *[cheap but could use in sidechains of Gate and RNC]
BBE 482i : *[probably could dump this]
BBE 882 : *[probably could dump this - or optional on direct electric bass signal]
Behringer MultiComp Pro : *[probably could dump - don't really need 4 channels of cheap comps]

Tascam 202MKIII Cassette Recorder : [live, reference and quick mixes]
Behringer Power Play Pro : [headphone amp]
[3] Audio Technica ATH-M40ƒs Headphones : [replaced mine with Shure E4c Isolation Earphones]
I plan on getting 2 more Shure E4c for the other guys in the band so they can enjoy them too! Great isolation for recording in one room situations - mic positioning, phase, monitoring, etc!

Alesis HD2400 Hard Disk Recorder

[3] Patchbays

[3] FMR RNP
[2] ART Pro Channel
** Soon to purchase [2]RNP and [2]Sytek MPX-4Aii for a total of 20 Channels of Mic Preamps

[2] Oktava MC 012-01 : [drums / over heads]
[2] Shure BG4.1 : [drums / hi hat & ride]
[2] Audio Technica AT 4033A : [drums / 4 toms miked in pairs]
[7] Shure SM57 : [snare / git cab 1 / git cab 2 / bass cab 1 / bass cab 2]
[1] Audio Technica ATM 25 : [kick drum]






My Recording Scheme :----------------------------
Drums:
Kick - ATM 25
Snare - SM57
2 Toms - AT 4033A
2 Toms - AT 4033A
2 Over Heads - MC012-12
Hi Hat - BG4.1
Ride - BG4.1

Guitar:
Left Cab - SM57
Right Cab - SM57
Roland Guitar Synth - Stereo Outs into RNP or Sytek
Direct Out - mono into RNP or Sytek *[for optional "re-amping"]

Bass:
Top Cab - SM57
Bottom Cab - SM57
Eden Head Direct Output - into RNP, Sytek or ART
GT-8 Pedal Effects - mono out into RNP, Sytek or ART
Direct Out - mono into RNP or Sytek *[for optional "re-amping"]






My Current Ideas :----------------------------

I foresee the next step being mic upgrades any ideas?
Maybe a different "flavor" of compression?

Move the ATM 25 mic from kick to the bottom 15" bass cab
** Purchase a AKGD112 for the kick?
** What kick mic upgrade would you recommend?
Move both overheads' MC012-01 to Hi Hat and Ride [ditching the BG4.1**]
** Purchase a matched pair of MC012-01 to replace over heads?
** What matched pair of mics would you recommend for overheads? [$400-600**]
** Or I could move the AT 4033A into overhead role?
** Or/And add Sennheiser e604 on all 4 toms?
** What other clip on mics would you recommend for toms?
[we need small low profile non-intrusive mics to "squeeze" into place]
[we do still have the option of throwing 57s on all the toms .."squeeeeeze"]

Use the Shure Isolation earphones - position mics and "rough monitor mix".

Another upgrade often overlooked would be cabling.
Are there any good resources for spooled cable and plugs / instructions for making my own cables?

So.. basically, in this context are there any comments, inputs or advice?

 

[chessrock]

What are you trying to achieve?

And what is your current setup "not" doing to get you there?

.

 

[Bulls Hit]

So have you got a room yet? Is it set up ? You have diffusers, absobers etc available ? I would ensure that side of it is all good before buying any more mics etc. You'll be wanting it sounding good to capture you're 3-piece

 

[promesis]

What are you trying to achieve?
And what is your current setup "not" doing to get you there?
.

I am trying to achieve basically 3 things:
1. optimum "semi-pro" compatible set up *identify the weakest links in equipment scheme then eliminate or replace. for:

2. live recording of rehearsals for short run releases and reference.

3. combinations of live and over dubbed recording projects for release.

The current set up seems to be doing fine (in theory and practice) - though I just moved into this new room and added some equipment recently. I will be doing some test tracking tonight and wanted some incite or someone to point out any obvious shortcomings. I usually didn't like micing the bass cabs but now I can use the isolation earphones to find the "sweet spot" much quicker in the one room environment - that is one element that needs exploring - hence my idea of possibly using the ATM25 on one of the Sunn's 15" - replaced in the kick with a D112 or something more "tailored" (maybe "tailored" would not be accurate) .. maybe simply a mic thats design has proven worthy and consistent at capturing bass drum frequencies.

Also, so far everything I have tracked sounds pretty good. I like the full rich low end and tight top end of using the AT4033 on the two sets of toms - this was yet another experiment - I had been using the AT4033 as the overheads - but then I got the Oktava MK012-1 for overheads and just for shits and giggles stuck the 4033s down on the toms - sounded amazing! Except, my drummer has things all crammed together - I have been "sneaking" his cymbals slowly upwards away from the toms for more separation. Because the AT4033 are physically bigger and broader mics (large diaphram condensor) - its cardioid pattern seem to include the undersides and edges of a cymbal or two - most notably his remote hi hat that has a large china type as the bottom Hi Hat cymbal with a smaller diameter hi hat top cymbal (very cool timbres with this device) - but when he gets to smashing on that thing - its that china "cwosh cwosh" bleeding on the AT4033 - and sometimes a cymbal will oscillate or "warble" as the sound pressure is being directed around by the cymbal's inertia. (Not to mention just a couple of nice hard hits during one of my drummer's Billy Cobham 64th note single stroke rolls and that AT4033 could be toast!) More time using the iso earphone should help position this mic more amicably - or, another idea, included for comment, was to replace the AT4033 with a smaller tighter patterned (hyper-cardioid) clip-on drum mic - tighter pattern and small profile to minimize the bleed on the 4 toms. As a general philosophy - I try to get whatever "bleed" is left to work for me as much as possible. When the sound of the drums hit our ears we are hearing all of the drums - bleeding - combining to a final collective timbre - so I try to use the mics the same .. by careful eqing and mic placement one can actually get the "bleed" to work for a good "natural sounding" drum kit. That being said (or written), I still like to minimize certain characteristics of this convergence before it becomes a "just scooch that mic back another 2ml".. Using smaller tighter mics on each of the 4 toms will give me more control over getting each tom's fundamental tone as opposed to miking them in pairs - and address the aforementioned isolation issues with more compliance.

So have you got a room yet? Is it set up ? You have diffusers, absobers etc available ? I would ensure that side of it is all good before buying any more mics etc. You'll be wanting it sounding good to capture you're 3-piece

Actually, the room sounds amazing - about 1000 square feet 14 - 18' sloped ceiling with steel beams and industrial insulation. Cement floors covered 1/3 by carpet. For diffusion and dispersion there are stacks of boxes filled with books, magazines, clothes, albums, etc. 7 ft tall and 7 ft thick around the three cinder block walls across one whole wall the boxes essentially go up to the ceiling. There are also several long shelves along a wall that are filled with more doo dads eveywhere .. so essentially the room is surrounded by tons and tons of surface area - all of this surface area is a combination of hard and soft irregular edges and shapes - thus creating a great "live" sounding room that has a lot of good character. I remember the first time we rehearsed in the room - we were amazed at how the drums sounded so good. I mean you could hear a real "click" as the attack was enveloped by the subsequent full rich quality of my drummer's nicely tuned drum. A great combination of live hard surfaces and fluffy density not to mention the huge tall ceilings. By the time the early reflections from the ceiling and tops of the walls come back down and combine with the expanding bass frequencies - its pretty monstrous.. like in a "good monster" way.

One thing I need to address is how I have the mixing board and monitors set up. They are along a wall with my back to the players.. I'm thinking I should turn it around so that the JBL monitors are not along the wall but on stands out in front of the board - in the room. That is probably an easy fix for the mix down portion of a project - right now it's the tracking and implementation of devices that I am concentrating upon.

Any links to DIY cable / plugs and stuff? Would like to start replacing all the "Hosa" and that ilk with better quality stuff.

Thanks for your time and attention.

 

[chessrock]

I am trying to achieve basically 3 things:
1. optimum "semi-pro" compatible set up *identify the weakest links in equipment scheme ...

Nothing, really. You seem to have a perfectly adequate / good setup.

The current set up seems to be doing fine ..

I'm sure it does.

.. maybe simply a mic thats design has proven worthy and consistent at capturing bass drum frequencies.

Your AT-4033 would do well with that. Just about any decent / good mid to large diaphragm dynamic ... like the ones you mentioned ... or an RE20 or similar.

Also, so far everything I have tracked sounds pretty good.

Okay. So ... uh ... what was your question / reason for posting again?

 

[promesis]

Your AT-4033 would do well with that. Just about any decent / good mid to large diaphragm dynamic ... like the ones you mentioned ... or an RE20 or similar.

You know - I never really thought of that - neat idea - maybe even try both a 57 and the AT4033 in the kick [57 close to beater / 4033 at head port] - it would open a broader range for the kick;

an instrumental band requires [imo] a more precise "placement" of sonic elements - notably the kick/bass relationships in this context.

Being unfamiliar with the RE20, I shall research it given your recommendation.

Do you build your own cabling? It seems economical to replace "Hosa" quality cables / mic and patch with quality resources at the lengths more conducive to my environment. Given that my set up is headed in the right direction - cabling upgrades would seem appropriate.

Okay. So ... uh ... what was your question / reason for posting again?

Yeah, I confess, a rather ostentatious posting eh? Honestly, I just am feeling much better about how far things have come - from a Fostex 4Track cassette with a ART Multi-Verb and 3630! I did want some feedback and some input [which I did receive] on several things that I had been considering. My axiom : "stupid people don't learn from their mistakes; smart people learn from their mistakes; however, the smartest people learn from others' mistakes." Additionally, and oddly enough, I actually was hoping to cull some responses from you chessrock - I find your posts/replies infinitely funny and to the point - most often dispensed from the nozzle of carefully crafted sardonic verbiage. Very, very clever and astute. I have inferred you to be among the quickest to "chime in" to ostensibly help - most often with a very slamming "quip" or is that a "retort" [I'll have to consult my literary reference material] but very very helpful once the cultivated effluvia of sarcasm is circumvented.

.... Soo, that shared, I am glad you seemed to approve of the direction I am headed with some of my decision taking - that is to say - you didn't slam me - and indeed gave me a couple of ideas. It only took a little while before you figured out that my posting was - at best - marginal .. if not simply a quiet celebration taking up a little band width on this board.

Colloquially expressed: I wanted to send it up the flagpole - and while I was saluting - see if you would pee on my pant leg.

 

[NL5]

Two good places for cables redco.com or contact HRBBS member Xstatic. Highly recommend both. Dump your Hosa cables ASAP.

 

[promesis]

Two good places for cables redco.com or contact HRBBS member Xstatic. Highly recommend both. Dump your Hosa cables ASAP.

Thanks - perfect! That's right Xstatic - I thought there was some one on here whom was the "go to guy" for DIY cabling.. great link too!