Newbie to mic pres...

[jtlyonsden]

My question is about mic pres, but first a little background...

I want to get an LDC mic for better vocal production and a better monitoring system (currently a Carvin HT150 amp with two PM5s - please stop laughing). Since this is the mic forum, we'll leave out the monitor discussion. (Again, please stop laughing. You gotta start somewhere.)

The music I'll be recording is rock - heavy and clean. A la Staind or Audioslave, but with female vocals. Singer has some Alannis characteristics with a very small amount of Gwen every now and then.

My short list (not) consists of the following: Neumann (U87 vintage, U87Ai, TLM103), Shure (KSM32/44), Audio-Tech (40 series), Soundelux (U195, iFET7), AKG (C414) and... still looking. Everyday I add about two more to this list.

I have a Tascam FW1884 connected via FireWire to my G4 running Logic Pro. The 1884 has 8 pres built in. Do I need...no, too subjective...should I expect to get a more pro sound using a preamp (Avalon, Neve, Focusrite, Great River, etc.)? And if I do, what's the best way to integrate it into my current setup...

1. Mic > Preamp > Channel on 1884 (what do I do with the gain on the 1884 in this case)
2. Mic > Preamp > A/D converter (basically functions as a 9th channel)
3. ???

#2 may come in handy since I have a six piece drum set and would like to mic the hi-hat (4 toms, 1 bass drum, 1 snare, 2 overheads, 1 hihat = 9 mics).

My other question regards testing my mic selections. It seems to me that it would be a painful waste of time to go into a Guitar Center/Sam Ash/Music Store XYZ and try these things out (monitors or mics). Painful because I have to talk to one of the *knowledgable* sales people. A waste because all of the mics I mentioned may sound great at the store, but my ear is not trained to hear what a track will sound like in the mix WITHOUT hearing the mix. I think I need to get the mics home and do some real recording to figure out my best choice. Am I thinking clearly on this issue? Anyone know of a good rental house in Southern California? This is L.A. for god's sake, there's got to be dozens!

Yes, I have the money (and the rare ability to SAVE) and I should be able to get both items if necessary, although I will probably start with just the mic to see what I can do with it. I want to get as pro as possible.

Any input is appreciated - especially from you experienced people out there.

 

[jkokura]

Great choices in mics I think. It's quite a range though...there's a huge difference between the Neumann and an AT 4040 or a shure KSM 32...

So are you asking which mic to buy? The rental idea is good, but all those mics will do a good job for you in my opinion - but some will do better than others. I would likely pick the Soundelux or the Neumann if I had the budget.

As for a mic pre - how much do you want to spend? Read other posts around here and you'll see that lots of people ask the "5 grand 4 channles" question...what pre's you want is very much up to you.

If you're wanting 8 new channels I'd look at the lunchbox idea (ala OSA API, Purple Audio, A Designs...). If you're looking at a 1 or 2 channel strip with eq and compressor it get's more complicated.

As for the extra A/D idea, I think it would make at least a little sense, but don't get one channel - get two (like a rosetta 200). Getting two good A/D channels gives you a superior set of ins and outputs for some special tracking (Bass, guitar and especially vox) and better output channels for your final pre-masters. You can export out of these to a CD burner (Alesis Masterlink...) and then send them out to a mastering house...

How's that? What else do you want to know?

Jacob

 

[jtlyonsden]

I wasn't asking for which mic to buy. I know that depends on too many things. I've read too many posts here to ask a question like that. Same with mic pres. And I don't necessarily want to replace my FW1884. Just add too it, if it's necessary. And that's what I'm after with this post...

In your (and everyone else's) experience, is a *good* ($2000+) preamp worth using over a standard console (control surface) preamp? My "get what you pay for" experience leads to believe it would be, but just wanted some outside opinions.

I know, this also depends on many things, but in general, are the results worth the extra expense? I've read many posts that say preamps are overhyped and not necesssary. And, of course, many posts to the contrary.

I will probably try some out anyway, but just trying to mentally prepare myself (and my wallet) for the expense.

I guess what all of this comes down to is... does anyone know of a good recording equipment rental joint in LA/OC, California?

As far as the A/D goes - what if I'm doing everything on the G4? No external CD writer. Maybe I need to look at that option, too.

Jeez, I though scuba diving was an expensive hobby!

Thanks for the reply, Jacob.

 

[cpl_crud]

Yes, a standalone preamp will be better than the pres in a console, espicially in the budget you're talking about.

As for the A/D converters, once again, a standalone will usually sound better than something built into something else, however the difference probably won't be as noticeable as a preamp.
Whenever you transfer to digital, you should really consider using a decent DA converter, and, since I doubt you'll be recording onto 2"tape and mastering LPs, you're going to end up going digital at some point.
That being said, you probably won't notice teh difference between your average converters and an apogee as yet. Use the money you were going to spend on an AD on something else, maybe some pres, compressors, or helping out someone else's addiction.

As for the rental shops in LA, can't help you there...

 

[jtlyonsden]

Thanks! That's the kind of answer I'm looking for. Thanks for the info on the converters, too.

 

[cpl_crud]

np.
Any more Q's either PM me or post them somewhere.

 

[Soundmind??]

If / when u decide to get A/D-D/A converters, go with the Rosetta 800 instead of the 200. For an xtra $1000 u get 4 times as many channels. Good mikes and pres should come first though. Start with 1 good mike and 1 good pre as u suggested. If you want to expand, keep buying them in pairs (1 mic/1 pre. Get a variety of them. When youve got 4 or more good channels, then look at the Apogee. It will really stand out when you record, mix, and master multiple channels. It won't improve what has already been recorded on cheap converters, but when you have 10 grand invested on recording equipment you will not want the cheap converters giving you a $500 sound.

 

[c7sus]

http://mercenaryaudio.com/lystau8andau.html

Choose your poison!

http://mercenaryaudio.com/micpres1.html

Like a lot of things, getting that last 10% of performance is the most expensive.

 

[BigRay]

for clean preamps....forsake all others and get the DAV BG-1...designed by a Decca engineer to replace the pres on their big console(replaced neve pres)..

www.davelectronics.com/bg1.htm

for colored pres.....there are plenty of options... but for clean and detailed...it doesnt get any better than the preamp I mentioned. Period.

it is used by so many professionals that i cant even list them all..i own the "big boutique" pres and the bg1 is better..

but David Gilmour, Mark Knopfler, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Decca Records, Ealing Mobile recordings all use the BG1..

 

[thewanderer24]

for clean preamps....forsake all others and get the DAV BG-1...designed by a Decca engineer to replace the pres on their big console(replaced neve pres)..

www.davelectronics.com/bg1.htm

for colored pres.....there are plenty of options... but for clean and detailed...it doesnt get any better than the preamp I mentioned. Period.

it is used by so many professionals that i cant even list them all..i own the "big boutique" pres and the bg1 is better..

but David Gilmour, Mark Knopfler, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Decca Records, Ealing Mobile recordings all use the BG1..

You peaked my curiousity...
I can't seem to find an online dealer. Do they only sell direct??
What's the price in USD?

 

[BigRay]

they ONLY sell direct.

Mick doesnt want the price to go up, so he doesnt let retailers sell his gear.

the cost is 680USD + 70 or so bucks for customs fees.

order direct from the website(well, via email).

Teddy

 

[tombuur]

I find this interesting, but he doesn't even mention price. Secondly, is it a tube or solid state preamp? No info here either.

 

[BigRay]

Solid State....price is 680usd plus 70 bucks customs(in the US)...it is about the same for Europe. I am about an inch from selling my millennia and getting more davs..orders are via phone or email.

 

[tombuur]

I just went to Gearslutz and listened to the BG1 vs the HV3. Admittedly just on some ordinary headphones attached to my laptop, but I found all the HV3 recordings to sound more pleasant than the dav ones.

Just my subjective opinion, you might get the dav to sound like the Millenia with EQ. But immediately I prefer the Millenia sound. Not owning either I would recommend you to think twice before selling.

 

[phaqu]

Just last week I was at my buddies place when he was tracking vocals. He was using a vintage 87. I had brought over an ADK Hamburg to compare. With the same settings on the pre, both him and his client liked how the adk performed on the vocals with the type of music that was being played. On that perticular voice, it helped his vox to stand out better in the mix without eq. Not that this is a rule, and Im not knocking the 87 at all, just sometimes a cheaper piece of gear does the trick. Or to say, there are gems out there that wont break the bank. As for pre amps, an outboard pre(even a cheaper one) should smoke your consoles pres. I, myself,like selection in both pre amps and mics. I mostly do rock,( Im also a drummer) so I look for punch. Both SS and tube pres can offer punch( both can also offer clarity). I only have tube pres(my fav is a Summit pre-comp), but know for a fact that both API and Neve make some rightous big sounding preamps.Ive been eyeing up an API lunchbox myself. 6 slots of pres, eqs, or compressors,...mix and match,and not horribly expensive. Another factor is not only tube or transistor, but transformers. They themselves will and caracter to a sound. All in all you have the right idea to rent the gear first. It will give you a chance to try it out in your room, through your set up and monitors before you make an investment.Also, you might want to try the used market. God knows I would NEVER have been able to cough up $12,000 for my pres if I bought them new. Good luck.

 

[jtlyonsden]

Thanks phaqu! Great reply! I'm not afraid of used gear, but I am cautious.

The reality is at my level and from where I come from (gear-wise), I bet anything I "invest" in will sound better than what I have.

I also agree with lower-end gear sometimes fitting the bill. I learned a long time ago never to sell any old gear. If I had a dime for everytime I said "I wish I still had that," I COULD cough up $12000 for some new pres!

And thanks BigRay. You're not the first to recommend the BG1. That is on my list. My wallet cringes every time I show it to him!

 

[BigRay]

HUH???I dont WANT the DAV to sound like the HV3....the HV3 sounds kind of lifeless in comparison....and headphones arent AT ALL a measure of what something sounds like...Why would I want the DAV to sound like the millennia????I bought more Davs BECAUSE they dont sound like the millennia..I dont believe in much EQ either..i keep a minimal approach with my work(classical) and do all my "eqing" with mic techniques and room selection.... For classical/acoustic music, there simply is no better preamp than the DAV in my opinion...bar none. price aside. the only other pre I am going to add to my rack is the forselltech fetcode. http://www.forsselltech.com/fetcode.htm other than that one, all my pres will be DAV. you might get the dav to sound like the millennia if you rip the life out of it. (and I can say that because I own both). So im not here for getting reccomendations for preamps as ive already decided on what my ears love..., but to offer them. thanks anyway though. you may want to try listening to the samples on something other than headphones....headphones are hardly a good idea when referencing one item against another.

I just went to Gearslutz and listened to the BG1 vs the HV3. Admittedly just on some ordinary headphones attached to my laptop, but I found all the HV3 recordings to sound more pleasant than the dav ones.

Just my subjective opinion, you might get the dav to sound like the Millenia with EQ. But immediately I prefer the Millenia sound. Not owning either I would recommend you to think twice before selling.

 

[BigRay]

And thanks BigRay. You're not the first to recommend the BG1.

of course im not it is the S&%t after all!


good luck man!

 

[tombuur]

Well, I may end up buying a BG1, if nothing else then because of the price.

I do have Dynaudio BM6A monitors attached to a Fireface 800 downstairs if I wanted better equipment for listening. Then again the ordinary listener would use something like an ordinary home stereo or ordinary headphones and an ordinary mp3 player. And using something like the latter I found the Millennia recordings to sound best in my purely subjective judgment. The BG1 was more detailed, which would have been fine for medical purposes like recording heart sounds (I am doctor), but for music I found it less pleasant to listen to than the Millennia.

EDIT: Where did you get the info about Mark Knopfler, and was it vocal or guitar recording, and any particular album?

 

[BigRay]

Then again the ordinary listener would use something like an ordinary home stereo or ordinary headphones and an ordinary mp3 player.

I personally dont care about the ordinary listener. My recordings are aimed at the people I record for, a lot of whom are very picky listeners being classical musicians and "audiophiles"(audiofools). For a good example of what gear sounds like,,,listening on headphones isnt a good test....when you listen on better equipment.....

The BG1 was more detailed, which would have been fine for medical purposes like recording heart sounds , but for music I found it less pleasant to listen to than the Millennia.

I think the BG1 is better for much more than heart sounds, which is why so many professional orchestras and recording engineers use it for um..music. . And your opinion is one of only a few people that found the millennia more pleasant than the BG1, but hey, they are your ears and its your money!

Where did you get the info about Mark Knopfler, and was it vocal or guitar recording, and any particular album

Mark Knopfler and David Gilmour both use DAVs in live settings and for recording. Mick(the designer) told me his client list...as a matter of fact, one day when I called to order my 2nd DAV, Mick mentioned that David had just called in to order a rack of the BGs...


I am all about finding the best sound possible, and money isnt a limiting factor for me..even still I am very glad that this 700 buck preamp sounds as good/even better than my multithousand dollar ones. Now for something with coloration/tube warmth, there are other pres for that, but detailed, clean, 3d,...dav