Newbe and need equipment

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Bassman_Rich

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I am a total novice and would like some assistance from those of you with the expertise. I want to start digital recording sessions with the quartet I sing in. The quartet is totally acapella so there are no musical intruments at all. I have a computer with plenty of ram and disc space and speed. Also have a HP burner which may need to be replaced.

What I need is a few recommendations concerning equipment. I'd like to keep the price tag down to about $1000. From what I understand I will need a sound card, 2 microphones, mixer and the necessary software.

Any help on what brands to consider and where to buy them would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Richard
 
This can be very simple and you can get great results with minimal equipment. I recorded a 4 member group for a Christmas album project and it turned out really well, regardless of the cheap equipment I used.

What I'd do is this:

Try to find a used 12 channel mixer on eBay. Mackie is preferable, although almost any brand will do. There are a few mixer names to avoid, in my personal opinion. They would include Peavey, Behringer, Fender and Alesis. You want something with durable, quality preamps, gain controls and faders. Onboard EQ is nice, but not always a necessity.

Anyway, you're gonna want at least 4 mics. You could actually probably get away with 2 or 3 mics, but I strongly recommend 1 for each singer. Now, since I imagine each one of the singers has a different range, I would tend to think that 4 mics of the same brand would do fine. However, try different mics with your group...go shopping around and see how many mics you can audition. Large diaphragm condenser mics will sound best for acapella vocals. There's a lot of good things being said about the Studio Projects C1 condenser... I believe it runs for $200 or more. The Marshall V67 is another popular candidate which can be had for as little as $170 or less sometimes. (gotta look thru ebay often)
The AT3525 by Audio-Technica is not a bad mic for the money. www.8thstreet.com sells them for $150 new. I wouldn't recommend it for all vocalists, but you might want to audition them and see how they sound on each one of your guys. It would save you around $200 if you buy 4 of them instead of the higher priced, large diaphragm condenser mics, but I wouldn't encourage you to skimp on quality, even if more money needs to be shelled out. It's worth it to do things right the first time if you can.

Acapella performances will always sound better with reverb. You can get good reverb for under $200. Lexicon makes some fine models. the MPX-100 comes to mind. Try to find a used one on eBay, but be warned: I wouldn't pay more than $160 for a used MPX-100. Don't overdo it, either. You just need some ambience to add character to the performance; not a muddying of the sound.

Good cables are worth good money. Cheap cables will inevitably go bad, and the result won't be pretty. Ask around and get opinions from credible people who know their stuff, and make an informed decision when you make your purchase.

An alternative to the mixer idea might be a higher-end soundcard. I believe there are some decent products which will accomodate XLR inputs and will interface with your computer for multitrack recording.

Anyway, it's late, and as a result, I might start saying stupid things without realizing it...so it's off to bed.

Isaiah
 
A couple of years ago my Folk based sound company was asked to provide sound for a 2 day choral/acapella show. I'm like "what do I know about this stuff" but it was a good friend asking so you know already I was stuck with it. So I did a little research into the genre and found a ton of information at http://www.spebsqsa.org/ One of the biggest problems they had was getting past the rock & roll mentality of sound companies. No offence to Prism but please don't go with 4 mics to record acapella. It is a genre all about the weaving of harmonies and cannot be done justice by micing individual voices. It just won't sound like acapella.

The best methord for recording is going to be the same as for live sound. On this web site is a very detailed document for setting up sound for competition. Find it and give it a read because it will come in real handy for what your trying to do. It will also explain in good detail how to set up mics in an XY pattern. This is the traditional methord for this genre.

Now onto my equipment suggestions.

I am going to assume you want to take the traditional appoach to recording your group. For this I would suggest a good 2 channel sound card to start. If your used to performing together then you won't need anything to monitor with. The number of good sound cards out there is mind numbing. For software you could go with Protools Free. It's a powerful package and would free up cash for the important purchase, mics. (It's limited to 8 tracks but that should not pose a problem for what your doing.)

Add to this a 2 channel mic pre. The Symetrix 302 can be had for a little over $200 and is a remarkably clean, transparent unit for the money. The Presonus Blue Tube can be had for less than $150 and is an OK Pre. (Not my fave but If money becomes an issue then well....)

For mics I have a couple of suggestions. I would go with either the Earthworks SRO or SR71's. The SRO is an omni and is actually the cheaper of the 2 ($269 if you search hard). I also recommend the SR71 because it would make a good choice if you want something to use when playing out live. Sound guys are generally cautious of omni's. Also add an adjustable stereo mic bar to the shopping list. I am also likely to get hung ot to dry for this one but I purchased the Studio Projects C1's about a month ago and for $209 each they are hard to beat. Having said this pleas note I have not as of yet tried them in an XY pattern but on recording vocals I have been very impressed.

(for those who would condemn me please note I am trying to keep this within his $1k budget. As to my opinion of the C1 just note 1. the studio I work at has a very deep mic closet. 2. I am not comparing it to anything.)

OK I found the link for the PDF I am talking about. Its at http://www.spebsqsa.org/Operations/ShowProduction/microphoneguidelines.htm Give it a good read.

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions
 
Thanks

I appreciate your recommendations and suggestions gents. I went to the websit you suggested and it was mainly aimed at the setup for a live performance. Am I to assume that the setup is the same for recording sessions?

Also, I can't seem to find where to acquire that free recording software you mentioned.

Thanks much, I will try to find the equipment you have suggested.

Richard
 
"I went to the website you suggested and it was mainly aimed at the setup for a live performance. Am I to assume that the setup is the same for recording sessions?"

Absolutely! This is one organization that takes sound seriously. The mic suggestion list has mics on it that I would never be able to afford for live audio. The approach for recording is exactly the same.

also from the earthwks.com site http://www.earthwks.com/menubars/more_0.html#

Near Coincident Omni Miking:

It is generally believed that near coincident omnis don't image well. That's what I thought, too. Well, Earthworks don't image like other mics, even other omnis. One reviewer noted that they sounded farther apart than the B+Ks he was comparing ours to. Closely placed Earthworks omnis image beautifully on solo instruments and small ensembles. You'll have to try it for yourself. Place two Earthworks mics with the tips close together (near coincident, X/Y or crossed.) Position the pair 6 to 8 inches from the sound hole of an acoustic guitar or in fairly close proximity to any instrument or small ensemble. Listen through headphones or speakers to compare the results with the original. Check for mono compatibility. If you are not thoroughly impressed feel free to let me know.



"Also, I can't seem to find where to acquire that free recording software you mentioned.."

http://www.digidesign.com

"Thanks much, I will try to find the equipment you have suggested. "

Earthworks homepage http://www.earthwks.com/

Shopping for the Symetrix http://www.paudio.com or http://www.markertek.com or http://www.fullcompass.com
Beat any of them up a little and you'll get a decent price.


C1 also at http://www.paudio.com

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions
 
I've heard groups with 6 or more members, each individually mic'ed and it sounds incredible. How can you say that it won't sound right? An alternative might be to use 2 mics for a stereo pair, and just do it that way...you can get good results from that.

Isaiah
 
I don't mean to offend but I'm answering the original question and staying within what I'm told.

Given 1. a budget of less than $1K soup to nuts and 2. in the hands of a novice, I thought it best to go with the simplest as well as the traditional methord for the genre. Yes there are a number of groups that in the studio, as well as live that do as you suggest.

I would have to ask "who is engineering"? My guess from what I read that Richard (no offence) is starting at this from ground zero.

It would be my hope that I provided him with enough of the technical aspects (from the link I gave him) to easily accomplish a stereo recording that will hopefully net him the results he is hoping for. If done with care, it will most likely be better than he expects. Also with less trouble in mixing down than as you suggest.

When I went from Rock and Roll to Folk, Roots and Classical I had to change my whole way of thinking. Even now, the studio I have my day job with is fast reworking all the rules as we experiment with 5.1 classical recordings. When we set up in concert halls we constantly are getting comments on how unconventional our set-ups are. So with the right background, I'm all for doing things contrary to tradition. I just don't think it's the right direction in this case.

So that's the smart *ss answer to your question "how can you say that?" Again no offence. Your results may vary. Void where prohibited.

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions
 
Thanks Again

Well, I got that free software and as soon as I opened it up I can see I have much learning to do. It does sound as though Mr. Cafe's suggestions that I stay with two channels and keep it simple is what I should do at this point. I have no experience with mixing and miking and the bottom line is that it is simply a tool for which my barbershop quartet can get a good idea of how we sound to everyone else. We also want to use it to make learning recordings with one part on one channel and the other three on the second channel so a singer can completely turn off one of the parts by turning the balance control.

At this point we have no plans to make professional sounding recordings, although that may happen in the distant future for promoting our genre.

Thanks to all for the advice and the insight. You guys certainly sound like you know what you're talking about. Hope you don't mind if I pop in again with another question or two.

Regards
Bassman_Rich
bum bum ba bum
 
Hey Richard

For answers to questions on Protools Free.

Let me mention that a good place to spend some quality time at is the Digidesign user conference. Follow the link though support on the page and sign up. You will now doubt end up with questions and it is the best place to find the answers for Protools Free.

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions
 
I do not believe you will get good sound unless you have a high end sound card. I use the Aardvark Direct Pro 2496. It has 4 preamps built right in, a mixer built in, effects built in, and comes with Cakewalk Pro Studio 9! It costs $479. All you would need is 4 large diaphragm mics and you are set. The sound card even has compression on the front end!! It is easy to use and sounds great, and comes with one of the most popular recording software packages on the market. It sounds perfect for what you need, you will get a professional sound for the least amount of $.
 
LX6

Hello and thanks for the tip. That card does look good. I went to a website which has it for sale with the software for $499. There is another card (new product?) which comes with the same software for $399 called the LX6. I read the info and specs on them but couldn't find much of a difference in them. Which would you recommend and why the 100 buck difference in price?

By the way. Whenever I'm on this board my browser keeps reporting that I'm downloading something. Anybody know what the deal is with that?

Thanks again
Richard
 
Richard, the difference with the LX6 is that is does not have the preamps built in. That is fine if you have a mixer or separate preamps, but in your case, the Direct Pro would be better because it would eliminate the need for you to buy any other preamps.
 
Another Soundcard

I'm still looking around for the right soundcard. Someone recommended a Audiotrak Maya ($124.95) as a possibility. I will still need to get software but it has preamps and a mixer built in.

Anyone here familiar with this card? I'm still leaning towards the
Aardvark 24/96 though.

Would also like some advice on mic stands. Going to be two channel recordings of a vocal quartet. Should I go with two separate stands or one with a stereo bar? I have ordered two Rode NT1 Studio Condenser Microphones. Will I need any special adapters to attach them to the stands?


Thanks again
Richard
 
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