New way for me, possibly not for you.

[badgas]

I don't want to come in from left feild as a "newbie" here. I would just like to suggest that it is not always necessary to start and or end on "I" in progression of order. Inserting substitution chords at key points of a verse or chorus to lead you to the next section of the song is one "trick" I use to try and force myself away from the old I VI II V (Left out the m's,7's,9's,11's etc because they are voices that will be added to compliment the melody as they evolve)
What I am trying to say is, (I think) think outside the box... Now if a melody, lyrics happens to come first, it is even better, because then you can work the voicings of the notes in the "progression" and this will keep it "fresh" as long as the melody is fresh and works with the overall song you should end up with "music"

Thanks for your post, Larry. Lemme say right off, I've been playing music over forty years, and know zillch about theory. Well, I know it, but not in the techie sense. To prove this inadaqucey on my part, let me state this.

I'm going to have to redo all my l, lV, etc ideas if what you say it true.
Of all the progressions I posted, only four or five of them begin the progression with the 'l' chord. The other songs begin with other chords than the 'l' chord of the progression.

So, by what you are saying, if I play a song from a C progression,
l, miv, lV, V,
and begin the song in Am, miv, I would start the progression out like,
miv, V, l, lV, etc?

Ya know, the more I look at it, the righter I think you are.

Lemme know if this is right, ok?
I feel so dumb some times.

 

[badgas]

philboyd studge
Historical songs are cool.
I'm doing a western song call, Beyond The Dawn, about a cattle drive. It's fictional, though. That's my extent of history and music, as far as I know.

I like the many ways you work on your projects. That's what I'm trying to do. The toughest thing I find is writing lyrics to music, but I'm working on that in my spare time.
Haa, haaa. As if I'm booked up day and night.

Can't wait to hear your tune when you complete it.

 

[badgas]

From your post you seem like a Virgo with obsessive compulsive behaviour. I wouldn't throw anything away or discard anything. Write 361 more tunes and add them to the files. Man you got me beat by a mile. And I thought I was bad.

Ummm, no, I'm not a Virgo. I'm the one in October, what ever that is.

Obsessive Compulsive behaviour.
~ chuckles ~
I prefer to call it, ignorance.
First off, I'm a musician, and songwriting has only came to more than a passing interest to me since I come to this board, or a year or so before.
I wrote a song, I kept it. As Larry states in the post after yours;
"If you have a catalog of original stuff to work with. You may find bits and pieces of multiple works that may be weak on their own, but combine to make something good."
that is basiclly what I was doing.
Of course, at first I thought my songs were great, who doesn't. But as the years rolled on I knew they weren't. There were lines and sections of them that was good.
I did cannablize my old songs before walking away from them.

Now, ya wanna talk compulsive behaviour?
You should see my collection of old pop top beer tabs. The ones you opened and tossed the top away.
If nothing else, as far as I know, I have the worlds largest collection of beer tab pop tops, idenified by beer manufacturer and can maker.
They don't take up a lot of room, ~ coughs ~ so I can't get rid of them. NEVER!!!!!!!!!

 

[badgas]

Re: repetitive progressions

I'm just thinking out aloud here...
Anyone listened to a John Mellancamp album?
Proof that same progressions in many of your songs doesn't matter.
Anyone notice the similar progression between Christina's 'Dirty' and 'Fighter'
You notice the amount of Lennon/McCartney songs that centre around your standard 12 bar???

The point I'm making is that there is alot more then the harmonic progression that make up a song... I'd say there isn't a jazz bebop song that doesn't use ii7 V I progression at some point...

But each song brings something new...

Goodluck with your album man
Scott

Good post, Scott.
No doubt, there are thousands up on thousands of songs written within the same progression.

What I'm trying to do is to try new ways for 'me' to write new material. I've played Jazz, Blues, Counrty and Rock, and the fingering in Jazz and Classical appeal to my hands and my ear.
It's new territory for me, and looks mighty green from this side of the fence.

 

[badgas]

Re: Very interesting thread!

Very interesting thread! Here's my 2 cents worth...

One of the exciting things about creating new music is that there are so many different possible starting points. I find that I get a lot more variety in my music when I use different starting points for different songs. A sequence of guitar chords is certainly an excellent starting point, but there are so many others. And of course, each writer has certain favorites methods of crafting a new song -- we've seen several examples in this thread.

Myself, I've started songs in each of the following ways:

1. Piano chords first
2. Lyrics first (sometimes using one of my poems as a starting point)
3. Melody first
4. Percussion rhythms first
5. Interesting electronic timbres first
6. Unusual time signature first (9/8, 5/4, 15/16)

The tools we use to assist our creativity end up having a big effect on the final result. If your principal tool is a guitar, then your overall body of work will reflect the biases of this approach. For instance, the emphasis on chord progressions is a typical bias of this method.

Note that "bias" in this context is not necessarily a negative term. In fact, a "bias" could simply mean a distinctive style -- which is often a good thing, especially if you have fans who are fond of your music. But if your music is getting into a rut, then trying a different starting point might be a good method for breaking out.

I also very much agree with Layla's point about stepping back and doing some analysis of your body of work every now and then. Of course, this was also the main point of badgas's original post. I also enjoyed philboyd's illustration of the use of analysis during the creative process itself. And Scott has a good point that in many songs, there are other attributes besides the chord progression that make the song distinctive and memorable.

Finally, I enjoyed seeing the examples and links regarding possible chord progressions. It's been awhile since I have used a chord progression as the starting point for one of my songs, but after reading this thread, I think I will give it another try!

Just to add to this interesting post, I also now run all my songs through a gauntlet of tempos. I have a tendency, when laying the foundation of a song, to slow the tempo down. Why? Beats me. So after I get the song in a playable mode, for me, I begin changing the tempo.
On two of the songs I did this to, new lyrics popped up.
A sluggish song seems to come alive.
A busy songs can become interesing.

Tactics and Secrets of non-published songwriters.....

I'm also working on a 3/4 song.
I'm tossing the idea of a 5/4. But that'll be later. I have a lot I'm working on now.

Great ideas, every one.

 

[philboyd studge]

philboyd studge
Historical songs are cool.
I'm doing a western song call, Beyond The Dawn, about a cattle drive. It's fictional, though. That's my extent of history and music, as far as I know.

I like the many ways you work on your projects. That's what I'm trying to do. The toughest thing I find is writing lyrics to music, but I'm working on that in my spare time.
Haa, haaa. As if I'm booked up day and night.

Can't wait to hear your tune when you complete it.

It's all done, 14 songs in 8 days. Five or six are really good and rest get the job done. Phrasing on lead vocals is the hardest cause there's a lot of lyrics to roll off.

My concept for this is an eastbound drive through Imperial county from an interstate 8 perspective of the 15 state landmarks in the county. I've already been to them but it wasn't until I did research did I get something to write about.

I guess you could pop in the CD and read the small guide that will accompany it and go to these places. It brings these old plaques to life.

Another possibility is to make it a presentation for part of California history that is taught in the grammar and middle schools. I know some local administrators and I think they could rattle a few cages down there and see what we could do.

It's a sort of 'the first one's free' sort of thing cause Imperial is close and had a doable amount of landmarks. Since this is taking 12 hours a day, I'm going to need underwriting to do another project.

When possible I tried to keep the song titles the same as the Historical landmarks but it didn't always work. In order of appearance they are :

Mountain Springs Station
Desert Tower
Camp Salvation (it started it all)
Yuha Well
Fort Pacheco
Tecelote Rancho
Old Plank Road
Pilot Knob Boogie
Tumco Mine
Driftwood Charley
Picacho Mine
Hernando de Alarcon
Two Missions
Fort Yuma

 

[badgas]

Hey again, philboyd studge.

That sounds really intersting. Very indepth and time consuming. The finished product sound interesting.

I've been to Ft Yuma.

My grandfather was born in Arizona in 1902. I remember him telling me about a plank road somewhere down there. He showed me some pictures of it.
His car slide off when he was trying to help another driver get back on after driving off. There was five or six cars stranded there until they got pulled back on.

If I remember right the plank road he lived near was longer than seven miles.

That sounds like a rewarding project.

 

[philboyd studge]

Ft. Yuma's was turned over to the Indians in the 1880's. It's heyday as a fort was from 1851 till then, and wasn't exactly a duty station of choice. It was there to protect the Yuma crossing, the butte which was about the only safe place to cross the Colorado river before we dammed it up and diverted it's water.

For the song about Ft. Yuma I used it as the final destination of my imaginary trip across the Imperial Valley so the song is more of a vehicle to wrap things up more than sing about the Fort and how they beat the crap out of the Quechan or Yuma Indians who had been beating the crap out the Spaniards and Mexicans since 1540. It's got a simple chorus in 6/8 that goes:
Aye, yi Fort Yuma, Fort Yuma we've come a long way
Aye, yi Fort Yuma, we make Fort Yuma today.

I remember my grandfather talking about the old plank road also. Being just wide enough for one car, two way traffic was a problem, so turnouts were placed and marked by a tire hanging off a 4x4 so you could see them coming. Fist fights would break out over right -of-way etiquette.

In researching the old plank road one woman's recollection struck me and her fondness of the bumpy ride as a little girl was what I was looking for.

The song is a two beat, in the feel of Waylon's 'Hank'.

OLD PLANK ROAD

Out in the desert where the Vulture flies, there’s an ocean of sand so high
Goes in length nearly 50 miles, and stretches nearly 7 miles wide

The hard winds blow like driven snow, and grit gets into your eyes
And the sand it drifts like waves at sea, and there ain’t no place to hide

Folks needed to cross with their automobiles, to drive around it was too slow
So over the top like a wooden snake, that’s where they put the old plank road

Ch) The old plank road was mighty chancy, and the old plank road was thin
Eight feet wide from side to side, when will this wooden road end?
Thumpin’ and a-bumpin’ shakin up an down, rattle like your shakin’ up a can
On the other side things do subside, daddy can we take the road again?

In 1916 they built the old road, out of seven miles of wooden crossties
Held together with bars of steel, for the cars and trucks to ride

You may ask yourself what did they do, when a car would come the other way
Every 1000 feet they put in a turnout, so you could scoot aside and get away

There’s a story ‘bout the man in an eastbound car, so stubborn he refused to yield
20 westbound cars stuck on the road, they went and got his automobile

They picked it up and put him in the sand, and the westbound cars got by
Picked it up again and put it on the road, and waved a not too pleasant good bye

If you’re crossing the desert by old Gray’s well, out on interstate eight
Take a look around at the old plank road, before the sand takes it all away


I thought I nailed the vocal yesterday but I have to redo it, it's just not all it could be.