New studio - Small budget - existing structure

F

fucanay

New member
Hey Guys,

I've been lurking here for the last month. Great board with lots of information. And my first post is a biggie!

I am about to begin constructing my home studio and I wanted to get some input from the knowledgable folks here. Here is the scenerio:

Garage: Currently 20' x 22'. I can use a 10.5' x 20' section of it. I will have a single 2' x 3' window in the front as well as a regular sized door. To get a better idea of the space, see below:

http://home.comcast.net/~fucanay/studio_layout.gif

The builing is currently only bare studs inside and the center wall has not been constructed.

My main goal is soundproofing. I want to be able to track drums at night with minimal leakage. The closest neighbor is on the rear wall. So that is the wall I need to focus on the most. On the sides there are no buildings to worry about as there isn't one to one side and on the other side is another garage. The front is of some concern, because it faces my house.

I have read about the OC 703 and the Rockwool but I am not entirely clear on how they are properly applied. For instance, does putting drywall over the top of it degrade the absorptive quality of it? I've seen contruction from other people, who only place frames with fabric over the 703 to finish it, but I need to have finished walls, because this is a house I may not keep forever and don't want to do ton of work later to make it sellable. I want a finished room.

So, what I had been planning, which I am reconsidering is putting 703 or Rockwool between the studs. Then facing the studs with foam strips to stop "some" vibration. Then 2 layers of 5.8" drywall, with all seams being sealed with caulk to prevent leakage.

On the rear wall I was planning on covering fiberboard panels with fabric (for aesthetics) and mounting them on a frame that would only contact the wall in a few places therefor limiting the vibration transmisssion.

What do you all think of this plan so far. And feel free to give me pointers and advice.

fucanay
 
Don't have much time right now, but check back either later tonite or tomorrow morning and I'll link you to more complete info on John Sayer's site. It should be back up sometime tonight. You have some good ideas and some not so good, but I'm in the middle of a major project (just taking a short refuel break) so wont have time til later tonight anyway... Steve
 
OK, John's site and all the goodies are still not accessible yet - am I correct in assuming that you get the side without the roll-up garage door, and that the door and tracks stay put?

Are those horizontal ties at ceiling level 2x8's, or what? And what is the height from floor to them? What about the wall framing - is it 2x4's on 16" centers? What is the outer siding? It looks like plywood from inside, is that grooved T1-11 siding, or is there something else over regular plywood?

What kind of budget do you have for this? I'm hoping it's more than a few hundred $$, because drums are not easy to isolate.

That's why the more information you can give about actual construction, materials, sizes, etc, the better - Also, what's your general location? codes differ from state to state, even from town to town sometimes.

It will also help to know your carpentry abilities and tools available,

When describing and measuring your area, remember acoustic spaces have THREE dimensions at minimum, more if they are irregularly shaped. ALL of those dimensions are important.

I wouldn't spend extra money on special insulation for inside walls unless you can find either USG's SAFB's (stands for Sound Attenuating Fire Blanket, they are 2.5 pounds per cubic foot which is optimum for inside sound walls) or semi-rigid fiberglas insulation in similar weight (Owens Corning 703 is 3 pcf, which is fine) - lighter weight insulation lets more highs through, and heavier weight lets more lows through.

Your roof was made as cheap as possible, with only collar ties every 4 feet from the pix - this means you will need to lose at least 8 inches below those collar ties for a ceiling, and at least 2-3/4 inches for a floated floor -

The bad news is that with drums, you either stop them in EVERY direction or you don't stop them at all. Low frequency sound is NOT directional.

The GOOD news is, if you don't try to change anything I suggest without discussing it first, you CAN get there. Here's just one example of someone who followed my suggestions and was very glad he did -

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88275&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

If you get impatient, go to the middle of page 4 for the results - you'll need to wait til John's site is back up for most of the links to work though -

Sooo, fill me in on all those questions, and let's get going... Steve
 
Hey knightfly,

Thanks for the info, and now I'll give you some more.

Yes, I get the side without the rollup door. The ties are 2x6s. the height from the floor to the ties is roughly 8 feet. I say roughly because the bottom board and the two tope boards add a few inches. The framing is mostly 16" on center but in some cases the walls were built on the ground and then stood up and nailed on. So there is a few places where there are double studs. and some of the spaces are small the 16 inches. And correct again, it is that grooved siding on the outside.

Budget: I have about $1200 plus a bit electrical work.

Location: Hayward, Bay Area California. Although, I'm not concerned with the codes. ;)

I have a carpenter that is going to do most of the work, but I am really searching for the methods and materials to best isolate this room without change the building too much. I only plan to stay here for about another 5 years. And lowered ceilings and raised floors might not be the biggest selling points, so I would like to avoid that.

As far as the ceiling goes. I know it was built cheap and what me and my carpenter discussed is actually building the new wall and building a real ceiling into it using the existing 2x6 ties.

Thanks again for talking me through this. I may resist in somethings, but remember I have to be able to sell my house someday and don't want to do anything that will need to be undone later.

Your advice is greatly appreciated.
fucanay
 
Just thought I'd chime in here.

fucanay said:

Budget: I have about $1200 plus a bit electrical work.
Click to expand...
I would have to assume, based on your budget, that you're not planning on heating and cooling this space?

fucanay said:

Location: Hayward, Bay Area California. Although, I'm not concerned with the codes. ;)
Click to expand...
Why would you NOT be concerned with local building codes?

fucanay said:

I only plan to stay here for about another 5 years. And lowered ceilings and raised floors might not be the biggest selling points, so I would like to avoid that.
Click to expand...
All the MORE reason to concern yourself with building codes.
If you sell your house, and this structure has been modified without a building permit, you could be subject to heavy fines, or worse.

fucanay said:

Thanks again for talking me through this. I may resist in somethings, but remember I have to be able to sell my house someday and don't want to do anything that will need to be undone later.

fucanay
Click to expand...
You wont be able to sell it unless you can show Certificant of Occupancy or code compliance.


Maybe I'm mis-reading your post, but it sounds to me like your planning on doing this WITHOUT a building permit.
I would caution you, that this can be disasterous! Without proper code compliance, and you will be modifing the electrical, and the structure, there is NO WAY you could ever insure the structure, or the contents. Not only that, but your risking life and limb. You may have the BEST of intentions, but that means diddly squat if there's an accident.

It is SO MUCH easier to play by the rules. Permits aren't expensive. I think you should look into getting one.
 
The structure itself was built without permits well over 15 years ago. I bought the house from my parents last year and there was no inspections at all that were required and the building was never inpected. I plan on doing things as close to code as possible, but I have no intention on opening that can of worms right now. Getting permits for throwing up some sheet rock, it seems to me, is government micro-management. And I'm not playing their game. The guy who is going to be doing most of the building has been in construction for more than 10 years and is a good friend of mine. I trust his work and he know all of the codes.

Also, I plan to run the electrical in conduit on the outside of the wall. Meaning that it will be in pipes along the base boards of the room. So in the chance that I did get nabbed later down the line, it won't be too hard for them to inspect because it will all be accessible.

I know this isn't the way most of you would go about things, but this is the option I have available without getting into a long drawn out hassle with the city.

And , no, I'm not getting a heating/AC system. I'll just open the door once in a while.

fucanay
 
Michael brings up several valid points, and part of your "catch-22" - the only way you can sound-proof that area enough to play drums at night, or daytime for that matter, is to build a complete "room-in-a-room" structure - floor, ceiling, all walls, double door soundlock, etc - with carefull planning, you might be able to do it close to your budget, but you'd have to do everything exact or too much noise would escape.

If you try to do it halfway to save money, too much noise will get to your neighbors and they may call the cops. That could easily turn into a "code check" visit, which would blow the whole thing.

Sound proofing requires full hermetic sealing of two separate centers of mass in order to work well enough to make things inaudible - any break in those two barriers must be done with absorbed and twisted paths, and still may leak sound. This includes conduits, which can transmit sound anywhere they go.

I'm not saying that this can't be done, only that it will be a serious challenge...Steve
 
I think I may need to rethink the whole project for a bit. I do have several limitations that may prove to be too dificult/expensive to achieve at this time.

The other thing that I thought of has to do with local noise ordinances. I have to be quiet by 10 PM where I live. That means that I can have some sound leakage until then. So if I were to do a sound resistant room instead of a "sound-proof" room, I may be able to live within that limitation. And just record drums in the evening instead of at 3 AM. I could still use the late night hours for mixing and acoustic guitars and vocals. Maybe even some electric guitars. Bass is always recorded direct, so that isn't an issue. The ghetto thugs in my neighbor hood have their Bass blasting at that time of the day anyway, so I could probably get away with it.

The biggest limitation is going to be be money. As my wife is really on me about keeping this as cheap as humanly possible. And a happy wife is more important to me than happy neighbors. You know, they can only knock o the door to bitch, she is in the house. :)

So maybe we should change the goal somewhat. How about aiming for something that can improve the sound leakage from what is currently there. Of course currently it is only bare studs.

So I am assuming that what I had planned would maybe not be any better than using plain housing insulation and drywall. If that is indeed the case, I don't want to fork out the cash for all of this stuff that isn't going to have any effect on my attenuation problems.

I don't know. I'm depressed now.

fucanay
 
Depending on your situation and what you're doing, could you stand using electronic drums for now? YOu can get a fair kit for about what your budget is, and take it ALL with you in 5 years. Then, you'd only have to isolate about 85 dB, the ideal mix level for best frequency balance. Much easier than stopping 110 dB kick drums. Just be sure to get a controller with AT LEAST 4 outputs, so you can treat kick and snare separately in the mix.

I know it's not ideal, but we all are in the same boat - too many ideas/wants, too little cash.

For example, I've been at this for 22 years off and on, and I'm just now getting close to being able to break ground on a free-standing, dedicated studio. Even then, I'll probably have to take it in stages, but will end up with a 40 x 60 facility with 8" solid concrete walls and 16 foot ceilings, which with inner envelope will mean someone could lean against the outside wall while I'm thrashing an acoustic kit to death and not know anyone was inside. Am I drooling over the thought? Does a bear shit in the woods? Do I wish I'd been able to do this in 1982? If these all seem like trick questions, the answers are yes, yes, and yes... Steve
 
eeew, electronic drums? ;) I have my 4 piece Tama that I don't think will being going anywhere any time soon.

I think I'll just go with a basic room construction now. It won't be ideal, but I'll at least have a place to play evenings/weekend days. And like I said I can still do other stuff at night. I'll likely still beaf up the rear wall just to cut some of the higher frequencies from the closest neighbor.

Regardless of how this turns out, it will be better than anything I've ever had before. Right now, I don't get to play the drums at all and all of my recording is done in my living room when nobody is home. And the space before that was a completely uninsulated spare bedroom.

Thanks for your time, and I'll post pictures and results as things come along. I guess this will be the poor man's studio with limitations thread.
 
At least do double layer of drywall. My room isn't sound proof but it slows down drums enough to keep my neighbors from rioting.
 
That sounds like a plan. I think I'll do the regular residential quiet zone insulation instead of the more expensive 703/Rockwool. If it isn't going to make much difference, I'm not going to fork out the extra cash for it. And maybe I can make the room actually sound better instead of quieter from the outside.

Thanks again everyone.

fucanay
 
Nice structure. clean!

How far was that nearest neighbor?

I agree with track rat to insulate and put two layers of drywall.
I also believe you can mount rigid fiberglass along th wall closest to the neighbor.

Mount the drywall then seal with acoustic caulk or permanently flexible caulk.

Your friends idea about the ceilling is good although you might have to sheeth the ceiling as well as the attic. Do not leave out the insulation. It helps but not much. Seal all cracks and crevices with the caulking. And frame large gaps with wood.

After all is sealed cut 2x4's and mount them on the wall vertically 16" on center or where the other studs are located. Fill thos cavities with rigid fiberglass 3 1/2" worth.

Staple and stretch fabric every four feet or so. Cut moulding to hide seams.

Build a platform for drums to sit on. And place rubber peices(neoprene) underneath.

This picture of my studio shows what it might look like when you're finished if you decide to. My price tag on the completion of that area alone and ceiling was $2300.

As you might be able to notice with this 2 mega pixel camera it has captured the drum booth with its attached swinging baffels.
 

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Hey guys,

I just went to my local Home Depot and found this stuff called "Celotex Sound Stop".

http://www.aknightcompany.com/soundstop_overview.asp

What do you think about using this in place of the bottom layer of drywall? I would probably be putting R-19 insulation in the frame of the building, then the layer of SoundStop, then a horizontal layer of 5/8" drywall. All seems in the framing, SoundStop, and drywall would be caulked with an acoustic caulk.

The rear wall, new wall, and the ceiling would probably be 2x6s instead of 2x4s. I would do this to protect the closest neighbor from the most sound. I would also use thicker or double layers of insulation in these walls.

What do you think of the newest plan?

Also what brand of caulk should I use for this application? I didn't see anything that said "acoustic" so i figured I might need to find another supplier.

thanks in advance,

fucanay
 
resilient channels

A permanent flexible caulk would be Sillicone II. by GE. It remains flexible and will not harden.

It would be better to us resilient channels with two layers of drywall than that sound board. Auralex carries the channels. You have to be careful though when mounting drywall as to not hit the studs. Mark all 2X4's on the ceiling or ground to be safe.

CHeck out thier website "auralex".

Cheers,

Casenpoint

BTW I don't know the stc ratings for the sound board. Is it much more in price to the drywall? If I remember it was about $10 for a 4x8 sheet.
 
The channels are going to be out of my price range. I found the SoundStop for $7.50 a sheet, which is close to the same as the drywall. I just want to know if it would be of any benefit to use that instead of another layer of drywall.

And thanks for the tip on the caulk.

thanks

fucanay
 
ix-nay on the ound-stop-say - gypsum wallboard is cheaper and more mass. And mass is what you need to stop sound - two "leaves" of mass, separated by air/insulation, each leaf should be at least two layers of heavy material. Sheet rock is cheapest for what you get, sometimes particle board or MDF can be subbed for one layer in a leaf. \

If you can't afford Resilient Channel, a separate frame is 2 STC points better than using RC on a single frame... Steve
 
Resilient Channels

Hey casenpoint... I too have seen the Auralex info on the resilient channels. My question is how are they used? Do I nail (or screw) the outer layer of drywall to the channel or make some way to hang the drywall on it?
 
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