New Singer help needed

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kinda off topic, but not:

a couple of years ago I was recovering from a problem caused by wrong technique (aka bad teacher trying to make an apple pie with an apple flower), and I went for an interchange experience abroad. I was singing as bad as one can, having lost nearly all my voice (really, I could hardly sing happy birthday), but I was following a fonotherapist's treatment, and had to rehearse daily. before going abroad, my whole family, friends and whoever else heard me told me I was crazy to keep insisting on singing, that I'd better study something else, and that music was not my future.

it was a small town, but I managed to rent a studio's room for an hour every other day, just so I could have a tuned piano as a reference for the melodies I had. one day I was just leaving the studio and I crossed paths with some older guy who was recording in the other room, and he asked me if I would stop singing (possibly because I was leaking onto his tracks, oops Xp ). I had already called it quits for the day, so I asked him jokingly "that depends on how much you're willing to pay". his face went beet red, bright white, a pale yellow, he stuttered for a while and then he said: "don't ever, ever, accept anyone trying to shut you up. you have the music in you - if you can be a better singer, work your throat off in that room and become the best singer you can be. but don't let the music in you die. because that's the day your very soul will be dead".

and that's me to you right now: "don't ever, ever, accept anyone trying to shut you up. you have the music in you - if you can be a better singer, work your throat off in that room and become the best singer you can be. but don't let the music in you die. because that's the day your very soul will be dead".

you need confidence? try theater, dancing lessons, get a singing teacher, a therapist, whatever it takes - find yourself. and sing.

This is very important, although the guy shouldn't have said that to you to begin with, IMO. But if you have the desire, you have to keep searching for the answers. That doesn't mean you are necessarily a diamond in the rough, you could just be a rock. But even rocks and be cleaned and polished to look nice.

However, you're not going to get what you need from a forum. You need a GOOD teacher who can also play piano and coach you on entrances and help you find your pitches and the beat from the accompaniment.

I had almost given up on singing because I knew I wasn't sounding right. I knew I could sing opera, somehow, but I just hadn't be taught how. I had several bad teachers that didn't understand the voice themselves. Many of them were wonderfully nice people and helped me in other ways, but vocally were off-track. Then I found the right teacher and my voice was transformed. I had a lot to undo so it took longer than I would have liked (that coupled with the fact that I could only see my teacher every 6 months or so until I moved to where he lived). Now, my voice is responding to my desires and I know how to fix it when it's not doing what I like.

Become a master of your instrument by learning from a master.
 
Morodiene really appreciate your advice. Thank You :)
I am going it alone at the moment.
There are so many one to one teachers, so trying to make sure I pick the right one for me.....I am getting there.....
I am using youtube, (Cari Cole) seems to have good short tutorials, which have helped.
Tried doing the lip trill......it was kinda funny as I ending making not very nice noises........:facepalm:
Looking at other tips online too. This is the most motivated I have ever been, currently I am happy with the progress I am making.
 
Morodiene really appreciate your advice. Thank You :)
I am going it alone at the moment.
There are so many one to one teachers, so trying to make sure I pick the right one for me.....I am getting there.....
I am using youtube, (Cari Cole) seems to have good short tutorials, which have helped.
Tried doing the lip trill......it was kinda funny as I ending making not very nice noises........:facepalm:
Looking at other tips online too. This is the most motivated I have ever been, currently I am happy with the progress I am making.

Believe it or not, you should trust your instincts when it comes to working with a teacher. Doing lip trills is pretty worthless, IMO. You're really just humming, and that is nothing like opening your mouth to sing a vowel. The vowels are each acoustically different and feel different, and you need a teacher who can guide you to make a clear vowel on every pitch in your range.

I recommend looking for someone who teaches registration (working falsetto and chest or lower registers), breathing where your belly goes out and you hold it out as you sing, and how to deal with interfering tensions. They're hard to find but not impossible. Listen to them sing and their students, and see if you like the sound they make.

Some warnings about bad advice out there on singing: 1) There's a lot of bad advice! 2) It's hard to know what's bad and what is good, especially since you can't hear yourself correctly as you do it - and that's assuming you are doing it correctly - to know if it's good advice or not. What we do is based on sound, and you need someone to respond to your sound to help guide you in the right direction. Videos and books give no feedback to what you're doing, so it's a shot in the dark approach.

Your best bet for now is to try and sing loudly, but not screaming. You may feel like you're yelling, but that's OK as long as it is on pitch. Any tightness or discomfort you feel in your throat you have to try and release while you make sound, so balancing your loudness with a sufficient amount of making a darker/more mature sound will help.
 
I don't know what all this derpy talk of following the singer is, but as a singer, I find that more often than not you would be all following the drummer/bass. You know, the RHYTHM section. Work on feeling the music and tempo until it becomes automatic to you. Then start working on perfecting pitch and control :thumbs up:

oh and btw, the people telling you to shut up are just being stupid. That's kinda become a "habitual" thing for people to say these days in attempt to make a quick, generic joke about how bad it sounds even when it doesn't :p /endrant
 
I don't know what all this derpy talk of following the singer is, but as a singer, I find that more often than not you would be all following the drummer/bass.
Well, let me explain it. Not all vocal music is pop played by bands. For every other kind of accompanied vocal music -- classical, opera, musical theater, standards, jazz, gospel -- the accompanying musician follows the singer. It's up to the singer to set the tempo, decide when and how much to take it out of tempo, use ritards and fermatas, etc. I've accompanied singers on keyboard doing club work in New York (though probably not what you think of as "club work"). I've sung with orchestras in musical theater. I trained vocally singing classic art songs. I've done musical direction for theater, and more live accompanied performances than I can count. The music ALWAYS follows the vocalist, except perhaps in band situations in which the musicians and vocalists are "self-taught."

You know, the RHYTHM section.
Yes, I know the rhythm section. A professional musician, including (and particularly including) studio musicians, takes his or her lead from the vocalist.
 
Well, let me explain it. Not all vocal music is pop played by bands. For every other kind of accompanied vocal music -- classical, opera, musical theater, standards, jazz, gospel -- the accompanying musician follows the singer. It's up to the singer to set the tempo, decide when and how much to take it out of tempo, use ritards and fermatas, etc. I've accompanied singers on keyboard doing club work in New York (though probably not what you think of as "club work"). I've sung with orchestras in musical theater. I trained vocally singing classic art songs. I've done musical direction for theater, and more live accompanied performances than I can count. The music ALWAYS follows the vocalist, except perhaps in band situations in which the musicians and vocalists are "self-taught."

Yes, I know the rhythm section. A professional musician, including (and particularly including) studio musicians, takes his or her lead from the vocalist.

here, sir: my irrestrict daily like to you, for the rest of your lifetime.

that's the reason why I gave up on trying to make live pop music performances with amateurs, even for cash: IF THERE IS A SUNG LINE, THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE. it's what the audience is expecting to listen more clearly as well - accompaniment is what it is - accompaniment. too bad people start learning their instruments thinking they will always be the star of the show, and not part of a group. sensitivity, is what this world lacks.

and respecting the fact that singers DO breathe. that should be piano lesson #0 Xp
 
@PTravel
Please, don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say you don't know what you're talking about. I am, however, saying that if this person is trying to learn how to sing properly, timing is essential. I was going to mention such classical instances in my original post, but I figured that the OP would most likely be talking about the usual pop genres [edit: I just checked back at it. It did mention pop specifically]. Either way, the performance must have a tempo that doesn't vary constantly. In many classical/opera/musical theatre/etc. (which I also have been involved in) they have a conductor to lead the tempo and a highly trained singer that knows how to keep a steady rhythm going. To this new singer, the easiest way to learn rhythm would be to follow a rhythm section. Learn to instinctually feel the beat without having to use up too much "mental processing."
 
@PTravel
Please, don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say you don't know what you're talking about. I am, however, saying that if this person is trying to learn how to sing properly, timing is essential. I was going to mention such classical instances in my original post, but I figured that the OP would most likely be talking about the usual pop genres [edit: I just checked back at it. It did mention pop specifically]. Either way, the performance must have a tempo that doesn't vary constantly. In many classical/opera/musical theatre/etc. (which I also have been involved in) they have a conductor to lead the tempo and a highly trained singer that knows how to keep a steady rhythm going. To this new singer, the easiest way to learn rhythm would be to follow a rhythm section. Learn to instinctually feel the beat without having to use up too much "mental processing."
I agree with your points, but I think I need to clarify them somewhat.

"Music," at its most basic definition, is tone that varies over time. Music differs from noise in that the sequence of tones have specific mathematical relationships to each other, both in terms of pitch and in meter. That's why beginning musicians (which includes singers) learn scales, but also use a metronome. A musician who lacks the instinctive feel for beat that you mention is just as handicapped as the one who is truly tone deaf.

This is different, though, than defining who follows who in an ensemble relationship. In popular music, a drummer may play ahead or behind the beat (for effect, of course -- not due to poor musicianship). The same is true of bass players. A soloist, whether a singer or instrumentalist, who locks himself in to the beat provided by the drum or the bass will be singing "wrong." This can be heard most clearly in jazz, which is improvisational. In a "traditional" jazz performance, the ensemble will start by establishing a melodic and rhythmic theme, and then each musician will do a solo riff, improvising on the theme, and backed by the other musicians. Both the key, tempo and rhythm may vary wildly, but the piece works because the musicians are so connected to each other that they can sense where the lead is going and follow him. An obvious example is found in opera -- recitative and obligato are the singer's discretion and the orchestra takes its cues from the conductor who must follow the singer closely. The same principle applies to other genres -- in classical music the orchestra (through the conductor) follows the piano or violin soloist, in musical theater the conductor follows the actor, for "standards" the band follows the singer.

Musical theater is something I know a lot about. In my view, the most talented musicians anywhere are skilled audition/rehearsal pianists. These guys are pros at following singers, can read from the most chaotic and messy scores, and can transpose on sight. The key to what they do, though, is providing the musical backing for the singer -- it's never the other way around. That's why conducting for musical theater is a somewhat different skill than conducting symphonic orchestras. When I was in grad school, I once got into quite a fight with a conductor whose experience was confined to the latter. I had a fermata, and the conductor demanded that I watch him for the cut-off. I said, no, the cut-off comes when I finish the note -- YOU watch ME. We didn't quite come to blows, but the dispute was resolved when the director took the conductor aside and had a little talk with him -- you can guess the resolution.

The danger comes with self-trained musicians. Over the last 20 years or so, computerized music creation and production has become so sophisticated that anyone can produce as complicated a piece as they can imagine with only a standard desktop, a microphone and a MIDI keyboard. All DAWs have built-in metronomes, and the temptation is great to use it for cutting all tracks. The problem, though, is that, while it helps instill that necessary inherent sense of rhythm, it also results in a very mechanical feel. I don't know how others work, but I'll lay down a basic piano track with metronome (I have a nasty habit of speeding up without it), then turn the metronome off and do my vocals against the piano, though using it only as a guide for phrasing, and then lay down the instrument tracks with the piano track eliminated. It's not the best solution, but it does permit conforming the music to the singer, rather than the other way around.

I suspect, we're probably saying the same thing, but we're talking about two different things. An instinctive feel for rhythm and beat is necessary for any musician, and should be one of the first things a beginner learns. Once learned, however, the soloist, whether singer or instrumentalist, defines the phrasing, tempo and variations, and the accompanists must follow.
 
Well of course if the music calls for tempo variations they should be implemented. If a musician is doing it out of context then he/she needs to work on that. Regarding the pop style that the OP is interested in learning, 99% of the time the band is kept together by the rhythm section's tempo. The singer in this style will almost always follow the music, pauses and tempo shifts already being written into the music wherever they were wanted.

If this were a post about classical styles, then I would have to agree with all of your points. These are definitely two very distinct styles and are approached much differently :laughings: haha I think we've answered this thread by now!
 
Well of course if the music calls for tempo variations they should be implemented. If a musician is doing it out of context then he/she needs to work on that. Regarding the pop style that the OP is interested in learning, 99% of the time the band is kept together by the rhythm section's tempo. The singer in this style will almost always follow the music, pauses and tempo shifts already being written into the music wherever they were wanted.

If this were a post about classical styles, then I would have to agree with all of your points. These are definitely two very distinct styles and are approached much differently :laughings: haha I think we've answered this thread by now!
 
Plus, is the singer is the leader and the instruments accompany them, then they must know WHEN to come in and how to lead the other instruments in what they will be doing, not leaving them in the dust or hesitating all over the place. However, in a band setting, it's more collaborative, where everyone's listening and taking cues from one another (ideally).
 
Well of course if the music calls for tempo variations they should be implemented. If a musician is doing it out of context then he/she needs to work on that. Regarding the pop style that the OP is interested in learning, 99% of the time the band is kept together by the rhythm section's tempo. The singer in this style will almost always follow the music, pauses and tempo shifts already being written into the music wherever they were wanted.

If this were a post about classical styles, then I would have to agree with all of your points. These are definitely two very distinct styles and are approached much differently :laughings: haha I think we've answered this thread by now!
Well, maybe, but there are still two different answers. Music is music, and it works the same way regardless of genre.

I'm not up on popular music, so you'll excuse this rather dated example of what I'm talking about:

ISLEY BROTHERS - "SHOUT" [ New Video + Lyrics + Download ] - YouTube

Plus, is the singer is the leader and the instruments accompany them, then they must know WHEN to come in and how to lead the other instruments in what they will be doing, not leaving them in the dust or hesitating all over the place. However, in a band setting, it's more collaborative, where everyone's listening and taking cues from one another (ideally).
Exactly -- everyone SHOULD be listening to each other -- after all it's called "playing together." However, you're absolutely right about who takes the lead and how.
 
Once again: any lead in's by vocals/instruments were written into the song. The song was written so that the cue for the band was "you know you make me wanna...". But I know what you're saying.
 
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