New Singer help needed

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newsinger

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Hello,

I have never been encouraged to sing and people tell me to shut up when I do sing, as its not the done thing at home!!! :confused:

To make the world a better place I have been trying learn how to sing. :thumbs up:

I know about singing from the diaphragm and breathing technique.

What I can't get my head around is how to sing along with music....ie. when to start singing in a song ie pop songs.
I can get into the rhythm of songs and dance along etc...... but I can't understand when to start singing. :facepalm:

I am going to get lessons from a vocal tutor but is there anything online so I can learn this online before I go to the lessons.

Really would appreciate advice!!!

Thank You
 
I'd say you need to memorize the song so you know when to come in.
 
Just as a refresher, when you breath you inhale from your upper abs, and then phonate as you exhale. When you've completely exhaled you want to inhale again to get a full breath. You don't want to push out your stomach or breath from your chest, it's just a natural expansion of the upper abdomen.

For basic pitches, you want to try to singing a comfortable scales of notes while keeping your mouth still. This will get rid of any excess mouth tension you might have. Also trying to phonate in the most relaxed way possible which can help you relax more of your muscles.

For basic vocal cord compression, you want to work with an "U (oo in english" vowel, and you want to make the vowel happen in your throat, rather than just your mouth. This allows your vocal cords to compress properly. Once U is comfortable, you move into other vowels making sure they all happen in the same manner.

To improve compression after you've learned it, you have to lower your larynx as you sing, especially in the high notes. Forcing the larynx to stay lower at higher pitches is the hardest thing you can do, but it will very very slowly start expanding your compressible range. It does this by slowly changing narrow compression into a much wider compression around the "eh" sound, but it takes a long time to transition.

Work with the range you have initially and master it. If you immediately try to sing super high, you're not going to accomplish much without having mastered your lower range.
 
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DoverOs said:
Just as a refresher, when you breath you inhale from your upper abs, and then phonate as you exhale. When you've completely exhaled you want to inhale again to get a full breath. You don't want to push out your stomach or breath from your chest, it's just a natural expansion of the upper abdomen.

For basic pitches, you want to try to singing a comfortable scales of notes while keeping your mouth still. This will get rid of any excess mouth tension you might have. Also trying to phonate in the most relaxed way possible which can help you relax more of your muscles.

For vocal cord compression, you want to work with an "U (oo in english" vowel, and you want to make the vowel happen in your throat, rather than just your mouth. This allows your vocal cords to compress properly. Once U is comfortable, you move into other vowels making sure they all happen in the same manner.

To improve compression after you've learned it, you have to lower your larynx as you sing, especially in the high notes. Forcing the larynx to stay lower at higher pitches is the hardest thing you can do, but it will very very slowly start expanding your compressible range.

Work with the range you have initially and master it. If you immediately try to sing super high, you're not going to accomplish much without having mastered your lower range.
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This is good advice but since the OP can't even figure out where to start singing I'd leave technique for now and focus on rhythm.

No offence to you newsinger, but if you don't know when to start singing then you need to focus more on getting the beat of a song into your head. Your technique can come after that. You need to be able to count the beat and come in at the right time. I think that's pretty much THE most important and rudimentary thing a musician needs to be able to do.

So learn it. Clap along to the song, count the beats before your part and listen carefully to the sounds of the instruments that cue you before the vocalist comes in. Basically it's what Ido said...get REALLY familiar with the song. That means practice, practice and more practice.

The answer lies in how much time & perseverance you put into it.
 
As a general rule, the accompaniment, whether a piano, a band or an orchestra, follows the vocalist, not the other way around. If you don't have a problem with rhythm and meter, don't worry about where to come in -- the other musicians will have to deal with it.
 
As a singer I've authority to say this, we never know when to come in... :P Just messing, 2 little exercises, 1. Pick a song you love, pull up the lyrics and just sing accapella (without backing) 2. Practice with the original track in time with the actual vocalist, Live, The others will follow you, or should if they're competent.
 
Really Good advice, Thank You!

Okay I need to concentrate on one song, I like all styles so gonna pick something from Frank Sinatra "New York, New York" or something by Kylie Minogue or Elton John. What would your best song to start with and please don't say Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.

Ok for "new York new York" how many beats in is it before I sing and for kylie "je ne sais pas pourquoi" how many beats in is it before I sing?
Is there an online tutorial for this, I can get a jist of the rhythm but there must be a way of counting beat in these songs?

Thank You
 
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Not sure whether I should go for vocal lessons or invest in a keyboard as well.
Would I encounter the same beat problems with a keyboard?

This is something I really wanna do
Thanks Again
 
newsinger said:
Really Good advice, Thank You!

Okay I need to concentrate on one song, I like all styles so gonna pick something from Frank Sinatra "New York, New York" or something by Kylie Minogue or Elton John. What would your best song to start with and please don't say Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.

Ok for "new York new York" how many beats in is it before I sing and for kylie "je ne sais pas pourquoi" how many beats in is it before I sing?
Is there an online tutorial for this, I can get a jist of the rhythm but there must be a way of counting beat in these songs?

Thank You
Click to expand...

Listen to the original, when s/he's singing, you should be too. Simples :)
 
i think you're focusing way too much on the technical part. how many counts this n that. if u knew what a count was, u wouldn't be asking that question. learn counts. start with the basic, 4, 8, 16, etc. what they are, recognizing their tempos, and how to pick them out in music. learn it till it becomes nature, so upon learning a song, ull just know how my counts there are, rather than sitting there and counting, waiting for ur cue to come in. its too much distraction that way, and ur focus is all about when to come in, rather than naturally coming in... youtube is ur best friend with this stuff. goodluck
 
everybody knows singers are dumb and can't count past 2 if their lives depend on it, so usually there's a hidden mark somewhere in the arrangement that yells quietly "you, with the mic, get ready, it's your turn now!". learn to look for it. but then you have to pay attention to what the other musicians are doing, and, well... that's past beyond your bellybutton. too far :listeningmusic:

(p.s.: I can say this, I'm a singer myself :thumbs up:)

now, seriously - listening is crucial for you to know how to prepare the phrase so you dive and get to the other side of the phrasal pool smoothly and "effortlessly". two or three years from now and you'll know what I mean ;)
 
nielphine said:
everybody knows singers are dumb and can't count past 2 if their lives depend on it, so usually there's a hidden mark somewhere in the arrangement that yells quietly "you, with the mic, get ready, it's your turn now!". learn to look for it. but then you have to pay attention to what the other musicians are doing, and, well... that's past beyond your bellybutton. too far :listeningmusic:

(p.s.: I can say this, I'm a singer myself :thumbs up:)

now, seriously - listening is crucial for you to know how to prepare the phrase so you dive and get to the other side of the phrasal pool smoothly and "effortlessly". two or three years from now and you'll know what I mean ;)
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LOL it's true! I've found that counting while singing is very hard though, cos you're counting words and singing different words at the same time. However, this is before singing, so it should be doable.

I think the best thing is to first learn to find the beat. Listen to lots of songs and tap the beat (not the rhythm, which is the length of the notes, but the underlying pulse). If there are drums, they can help you find the beat. Drums do a lot more than just the beat, but the beat will be in there. Beats are organized into measures which contain usually 4 pulses, but can be 3 or 6 or 2 beats per measure. You need to learn to find out how many measures happen before you come in. Most of the time it will be 4 or 8 measures.

Try tapping the beat along with lots of different kinds of songs so you can physically feel the beat happening somewhere in your body. When you get good at this (you'll be able to tell if your off because your taps or claps won't sound at the same time as the drums), then start grouping them in 4 beat measures by counting "1 (2-3-4), 2 (2-3-4), 3 (2-3-4), 4 (2-3-4)" where the numbers in parentheses are the remaining 3 beats int he measure and the other numbers are what's called the downbeat. This is the strongest feeling beat in any time signature, and once you can feel these well, you only count those and not the individual beats. Then you are counting measures.
 
Thanks for all the help so far it has been really useful and encouraging.

I really would like to record my voice with a backing track, now I have figured out when to start singing in the song (New York, New York)........:)
I have got a backing track and can get a microphone, I want record my voice with the a backing track and post it here......
Do I need to buy software to do this? What is the easiest way to record vocal with backing track on my pc.

Thanks Again!!!
 
newsinger said:
Thanks for all the help so far it has been really useful and encouraging.

I really would like to record my voice with a backing track, now I have figured out when to start singing in the song (New York, New York)........:)
I have got a backing track and can get a microphone, I want record my voice with the a backing track and post it here......
Do I need to buy software to do this? What is the easiest way to record vocal with backing track on my pc.

Thanks Again!!!
Click to expand...
For something simple to get you started, you can try Audacity.
 
PTravel said:
As a general rule, the accompaniment, whether a piano, a band or an orchestra, follows the vocalist, not the other way around. If you don't have a problem with rhythm and meter, don't worry about where to come in -- the other musicians will have to deal with it.
Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. The singer should be following the music if he wants to learn how. How do you get a recorded track to follow you???
 
ido1957 said:
I couldn't disagree more with this statement. The singer should be following the music if he wants to learn how. How do you get a recorded track to follow you???
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You don't. However, the human voice is a musical instrument, just like any other, and, when someone says, "singing," I don't assume karaoke, but singing with other instruments. Other than for singing with a recorded track, the band, orchestra, or instrumental accompanist ALWAYS follows the vocalist. Ask any professional performer or studio musician.

Frankly, I have trouble understanding a singer who "doesn't know when to come in." Someone that divorced from the music really needs to work on their musicianship. Perfect pitch can't be learned (though perfect relative pitch can). Everything else, from understanding the structure of music to developing a visceral sense of rhythm and beat, can. A singer who doesn't know when to come in is no more a musician than a guitar player who doesn't know when to come in.
 
when singers begin to study it is common that they don't know when to start singing, unless the accompanying harmony has a very, very clear cue. a piano is usually easier to follow then a guitar or an orchestra, for example.

alongside singing, the singer develops its listening perception, rythmic, harmonic and melodic habilities - that's what you call "musicianship". that's a process, and results come with time. like I said before, a couple of years of serious study should solve the problem.
 
Thanks all for the advice and the encouragement, :)
I have always been told to shut up every time I even start to sing, so have really no confidence at all.
I am learning the basics of music and getting better with time, with New York New York I have the music sheet now and can follow it.
I get lost in the middle of the song. I have used audacity with a backing track and don't sound too good, I reckon I sound better without the backing track, as I am in free flow :facepalm:
Not gonna give up.
Thanks
 
kinda off topic, but not:

a couple of years ago I was recovering from a problem caused by wrong technique (aka bad teacher trying to make an apple pie with an apple flower), and I went for an interchange experience abroad. I was singing as bad as one can, having lost nearly all my voice (really, I could hardly sing happy birthday), but I was following a fonotherapist's treatment, and had to rehearse daily. before going abroad, my whole family, friends and whoever else heard me told me I was crazy to keep insisting on singing, that I'd better study something else, and that music was not my future.

it was a small town, but I managed to rent a studio's room for an hour every other day, just so I could have a tuned piano as a reference for the melodies I had. one day I was just leaving the studio and I crossed paths with some older guy who was recording in the other room, and he asked me if I would stop singing (possibly because I was leaking onto his tracks, oops Xp ). I had already called it quits for the day, so I asked him jokingly "that depends on how much you're willing to pay". his face went beet red, bright white, a pale yellow, he stuttered for a while and then he said: "don't ever, ever, accept anyone trying to shut you up. you have the music in you - if you can be a better singer, work your throat off in that room and become the best singer you can be. but don't let the music in you die. because that's the day your very soul will be dead".

and that's me to you right now: "don't ever, ever, accept anyone trying to shut you up. you have the music in you - if you can be a better singer, work your throat off in that room and become the best singer you can be. but don't let the music in you die. because that's the day your very soul will be dead".

you need confidence? try theater, dancing lessons, get a singing teacher, a therapist, whatever it takes - find yourself. and sing.
 
Thanks nielphine for the story, I have started then stopped a couple of times in the past.
Not gonna stop this time, I am getting better at reading music and following the beat.
Its just a case of putting your mind 100% to it then not giving up. :) Thank You
 
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