New one from Smart Apple... Gimme your ears and experience. Frustrated with this 1.

T

Teddie

New member
Hey HR friends,

I've got a new one that I did since I still had momentum from doing "Breath Like Water". This new one is a little bit of my softer side.

It's called "Faded" and you can find it here:
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/102/smart_apple.html

I always have a hard time recording music that has acoustics in it. This one is no exception... Something is wrong... I feel it's a lot of little things that are wrong but one of the things I know for certain is the bass... I think there is a frequency or stretch of freqs that are overloading the bass track... I'm hoping someone can tell me if that's the case and maybe give me an indication as to what freqs to roll-off without losing the bass's essence or spirit... I've tried a few things to try and fix that, but man, I'm frustrated.

Anything else that's wrong with the mix, I can't pinpoint - my ears' pallet is overworked... so I hope you guys can help me out as you've done so many times in the past.

Thanks again - as I've said, you guys are GREAT!

Teddie (Smart Apple)
 
Hey Teddie...

Im writing this as Im listening for the first time...

Ok...this is money...I really like it. The sound you get outta the acoustic with the deep bass behind it is really kinda unique, I like that sound. At 1:29ish, the harmony with layered vocals, maybe bring the backing vocal track up just a hair.

Maybe bring the kick drum level up just a tad, but thats kinda a personal preferance, and I think the song does work well with the levels as they are.

Guitar solo is awesome.

Thats all i got. Just suggestions from someone who knows quite little. That songs cool dude. I really like it. Does it beat Which Way? It just might.
 
Here's a suggestion or two....

Cut the bass -1db @ 130Hz (from it's present setting) and add a bit of flanger to it. The bass track was well-played and sounds great, but it would be nice to hear it sound a bit more Pink Floyd-ish (like the intro to "Hey You"). I'm not saying to copy that sound "exactly", just to move in that direction.
Secondly, you might try adding +1db @ 15 kHz to that acoustic guitar track. That would make it slightly crispier and would help out the cancellation on those low-notes.
Lastly, I would add just a slight bit of "small-room" or "small-hall" reverb to the entire mix.
The song has great feel, but that feeling just needs to be enhanced just a bit.

"Faded" is the kind of song that makes me kick-back and let my mind wander.... and then drift away to another place. I really liked this song alot! :)

I might be wrong on the flanger-sound on the bass track, but it sure would be interesting to hear the song that way.

Excellent as usual, Teddie.
The record labels have no idea what they're missing! ;)

Rock on, bro...
Buck
 
Teddie, that was awesome as usual.....whats your secret?.....I especially liked the guitar solo, really fit the song well....i miss guitar solos.....
 
Folks, I'll be right back to post replies... It's late and I want to try some of that stuff my buddy Buck suggested before I fall on my face asleep...

be right back.
 
OK....

I wanna know how you recorded/mixed the bass and the accoustic guitar... I agree that there's something that's not right...

The guitar solo is very good as always, but IMHO, it has nothing to do with the rest of the song... I was in charge, I'd make it slower and more melodic...

Songwriting is superb! You really know your shit.
 
Dont worry Meshuggah, you wont even remember the solo in the morning (you drunk).....I think it fit the song perfect...it started out melodic, slow, and built up emotion and power and speed....i like for the solo to speak to me like that...even the speedier parts had emotion and feel, he wasnt just showing off his licks.....now go to bed and sleep it off...
 
Folks, I'm sorry.. I got swamped again... as soon as things chill out, I'll be right back here to answer all posts.

Damn.
 
Great song, Teddie. Fine performance.

I think the problem with the acoustic guitar is that it's swallowing up the vocal. You have an electric bass, so you really don't have to worry as much about the bottom end of the acoustic guitar. So I would try scooping out the acoustic guitar a bit somewhere around 250-500 hz, and maybe a high shelf over 12K. Also, is it possible that the acoustic guitar is overcompressed (or maybe your attack and release times are too fast, which in my limited experience tends to lose that nice ringing tone)?

I agree somewhat about the lead guitar. The first phrase is great, but then the pyrotechnics come. That's not what you want for this song. Think, As My Guitar Gently Weeps.

Keep in mind this is very critical thinking. You guys are just great.
 
Hi friends... Sheesh, I'm so freakin' wired on coffee right now.. it's 4 am in the moring and I'm in the middle of answering hundreds of emails.... I'm feeling good, damn good...

King Nothing, thanks for listening. Ah, man, I tweeked the vocals on the last mix I did... I made sure that it was updated on mp3.com before I came to say anything about it... but yeah, I messed with the vox mix so I think I took care of that part you were mentioning. Man, I had my kick drum sound... I've got an instrumental that I'm going to do in the next few days and I'm going to mess around with my drum unit settings... All the levels on the samples are maxxed, so what I'm thinking is, drop the levels (within the unit) of the other items so the kick drum is able to come up, or rather... well you know what I mean... I'm going to try and find a thumpier kick sound though... this one is kind of clicky... I've always used it, but I've become tired of it... I can't remember who mentioned the clickiness of it a while back.. I think it was Lipp... (side note, I fried the left channel of my sound card somehow... I'm thinking of getting the SB Live 5.1 tomorrow... that's another story... rambling on caffiene.) Man, so does this actually beat "Which Way" for you? My wife actually digs this better than her last fav, which was "I Drank Alot Today"... interesting.

Buck, my man Buck! What's up, bro... thanks for lending an ear. I'm glad you like the imagery of this one... I like it too. As for the suggestions you gave... I did the +1db at around 12k on the acoustic parts... yup. The flang on the Bass was a good idea -- I tried flang, and then I tested chorus... I decided not to keep it that way though... although, I think I might implement an effected bass line on another tune, I'm sure... Thanks much for listening, as usual... I made other changes to this track that I'll mention later in this post... (by the way, I received the remix that you'all send me of "Doin' Nothin" - I think since I'm so wired, I'll actually be able to update it tonight/this morning)...

Gidge, hello my friend! Secret? Sheesh, I wish I still had a secret, hehe... I've been having problems "hearing" things in my music and mixing, etc... I've even been having problems singing... what the hell is going on? Getting old? Me? Sheesh... I'm actually concerned about this, although, I'm joking a little bit about it... I'm glad you like the guit solo... I'll be talking more about it farther down in the post... Thanks for listening...

Nutdotnet, ah, you're too kind... I have no secrets my friend... in fact, I suck lately. If you're serious about wanting to know about how I'm recording... I'm recording everything direct into my soundcard... I multitrack using PowerTracks 6 (48-tracks). Here's my equipment list: Gibson SG electric guitar, Fender 12-string and 6-string acoustic guitars, Fender Squire bass guitar (P-Bass Special Model), Line-6 POD guitar direct box, Line-6 BassPod, Morley "Bad Horsie" Wah-Wah, ART Tube MP (mic preamp), Shure SM-57 mics, Roland Drums -- Thanks for the kind words

Mesh, hey hey, how are you man! Gidge says you're drunk, are you? I'm the opposite of drunk right now... I'm so freakin' wired on coffee... The acoustic guits I recorded direct using the piece of crap built in mic in the guitar... The acoustic guitar I used for this one wasn't the 12-stringer that I used for "All I Live Is You"... the 12-stringer that I used for "All I Live Is You" has a brighter tone... pretty nice tone... the 6-string that I used for "Faded" is bad... very bad... An old guitar that someone gave me over 12 years ago... I think her grandmother built it or something like that... I tried to just "mic" this guitar because in "open-air" it sounds pretty good... but when I tried that, I basically confirmed to myself that I have no idea how to mic shit... except my voice... (duh, hold the mic to my mouth)... But I can't mic a guitar... I suck. Anyway, so to compensate for the muddy tone of my 6string/condenser mic, I used a funky preset on my Pod... The bass, I recorded as I've done with my other songs... Okay, I'm going to talk more about what I did to the latest mix to try and remedy the weirdness of the acoustic and bass crap... The guitar solo, I'd have to agree with you 50% on that... After I played it back, it did seem rushed after the first part... The reason I didn't change it is because, man, I was really feeling it while I was playing it as I was playing it... My body and hands would not let me play it any other way... it's weird... But I left the solo like it is... Although, in this latest mix, I did try to set it down in the mix a little... a very gradual settling of the solo down in the mix (louder for the first part and a miniscule amount down for the latter part of the solo... I think it sounds less jarring... let me know... I know you'll still hate the hurriedness of the last part of the solo, but you might notice a difference the way I mixed it this time. I'm glad you liked the songwriting and I thank you for listening.

LI Slim, YAY! Hey, thanks for the advice on scooping 250-500hz... I was listening to the acoustic tracks all by them selves and they had a very bad harmonic boom thing... I scooped out around the 250hz area a few db's down... SHWEET.... took the boom out... I had already upped the 12k area from what Bucky said... (please define high-shelf for me, I dunno what that means)... I actually scooped out a touch of that same frequency on the bass track, and I honestly think this song has more punch and less mud now... good advice thanks... I always associate boom with the lowest of freqs (I don't know much about tone when dealing with the hz and k's) Anyway, I actually didn't compress the acoustics... I think it's just the bad condensor mic built into the guitar... it's very bad... Additionally, this is stupid, but I wish I had cut my nails before I played the acoustic parts... Anyone who's tried to play guitar when your nails are kinda gettin' hairy knows what I mean... About that solo, see what I said to Mesh up there... I was feelin' it... I couldn't help it :) Thanks alot for the kind words... I don't mind critical thinking at all... Man, I wouldn't have it any other way... I learn so much from you folks (I've said this a million times, but I like to make sure people know how much this helps me)...

Okay, anyway, if you'all've got the mp3 of "Faded" saved on your drive, rename it and please have a listen to the remixed version... it's here: http://mp3.com/smartapple

... and see the comparison... I'm still open for more critique... but I might not actually mess with this one for a little while... I'm actually thinking of fixing "Procrastination" if anything...

Thanks again! ~Teddie
 
Allright, Teddie..

I wasn't able to make a direct comparision, but this time when I listen to it, it sounds just fine. The accoustic guitar sounds very boring. It's well played, but it's tonal qualities are just plain bad. Maybe a SLIGHT touch of flanger or chorus can help it sound more alive...

Good mix. Great song.
 
Ted! What's up bro?

Nice tune. The solo part kinda reminds me of Skid Row.

The acoustic guitars sound really dry and scratchy to me though. My first impression was that you had tuned them down super low, you know, with the strings really loose. Are there dropped tunings in there? Or maybe you rolled off quite a lot of the bass freqs?

I'm with Meshuggah about adding a little chorus or a little reverb to soften the tracks up a little and to give some 'space.' Just a touch though.

I'm listening at low volume (it's midnight) and the bass sounds fine to me (although a little soft.) I'll try cranking it up tomorrow.


OK, second listen:

Maybe you could push the guitars back a little to make room for the vocal? Right now they're kind of encroaching your vox.

You know, you have one of the most versatile voices I've ever heard.

I know what the guitars sound like! CAKE!
Have you ever heard Cake?


I thinking out loud.
Don't pay any attention to me.
 
Wow! Great song, Great recording, nice work man, sounds awsome. what kind of sound card are you using?
-Andrew
 
Last edited:
iravage

teddie,
just an update: i downloaded "Faded" around 3 weeks ago which is when i put the post above on. This song keeps geting better and better, i have listened to it practically everyday since. This song is Really Awsome! Also what equipment are you using? do you have it posted anywhere? Thanks
-Andrew
 
Hey Teddie,
I'm not in the habit of commenting on other people's work / recording / production, as it all depends on to many factors. 'part from that, if I do that I'm at work! :)

I'd been told you do some nice stuff so I listened. Good song! I assume its a lot softer than your other work, and if it is (not had time to listen to other things) that is where you have / have created you frustration.

You are trying to paint an atmosphere, a picture, with the song. So.... get out of rock / ska / whatever mode, and start floating in it.
I know most people see bass a part of the rhythm - I don't. Bass is the carpet of a song, it can be any colour, but you stand on it and it surrounds you. It sets the tone, it sets the atmosphere. So --- let it carry the song.
Perhaps consider going in - the way you go out. Add a short melodic bass-line intro, to set the atmosphere.
In my opinion, your guitar part is the main culprit. It contradicts what you are trying to bring over, its too much in your face and takes away from the feel.

There are millions of options and suggestions. I can only write what I would do:
Intro - bass alone, melodic line leading into the underpinning of the song.
Drop the guitar, start the vocal.
Bring in a guitar - much softer sound (like a nylon string?) - playing a very minimalistic rhythm. Very much background, spacious, soft sound.
Then, at the right time, bring in a second guitar part, play what is already there, but with a much softer, warmer tone. \
Mix the 2 guitar parts together - but don't forget to let the bass carry it.
Perhaps come in with some very simple percussion?
Then drums - use the kick to underpin the bass, avoid the "in'yer'face" stuff.
The break - make the silence longer, at least double it, which doubles the tension.
Out - drop stuff along the way out - end with the bass, and for good measure, turn it down, walk away and record the footsteps into the distance :)

How long is a piece of string?
 
teddie,

I apologize.


I love this song. Its awesome.

as far as production, I thought that the guitar and lead vocal had a bit too much high end, and that the highs could be brought down a tad to make it a little more mellow. I know how it feels trying to chase clarity.

I am not really feeling the space that the lead vocal is in. I like the lead vocal, but I think it could do better with a plate reverb rather than a room.

This song is definitely a keeper, and I think it could be top 40.
 
I think the acoustics sound excellent; perhaps just a touch of some long-tailed reverb might lush them up appropriately. I didn't like the tone of the bass in contrast with the acoustics, not sure why, it was a little harsh or astringent... I think perhaps the lines collided with the guitar part for a moment or two hear or there. Maybe drop a note here or there or phrase the line a little differently... I'd also be curious to hear the bass with some sort of motion in the tone like Buck62 suggested... a flange or some sort of filter maybe?

Nice guitar solo... don't you love that POD?
 
First off, folks, sorry I haven't been around... Spent the last couple of months remastering every song on my "Valley of the DogZ" CD... (this time I tried to listen to as many commercial CD's that I felt had very good production qualities and I tried to get my tracks as close as I could to those CD's)... and trying to get things straight with some aspects of my music and stuff... by the way, took a trip out to Chicago last week for my father-in-law's wedding and visited The Mac Brothers... I'll post something about that later.

Meshuggah, I remixed this song again. The guitars really are just bad in the song but I tried to fix it again and I think this is about as good as it's going to get... I made some changes in the bass guitar track as well... I tried to take your advice on putting a little chorus or flange on those tracks, but it seemed to highlight the bad tonal qualities of the guitar and the way I recorded it. As a side note, since I was out in Chicago last weekend, I recorded the acoustic tracks for one of the songs on my next CD at Buck62's (The Mac Brothers) studio... It sounds beautiful...

MrLip, thanks for listening bro... Yeah, Skid Row, I can hear that... I kind of come from that era... must leak out in my solos sometimes... especially on those ballads. About the tuning, it's definitely dropped tuning... way way down... Although it's not why the guits sound so bad... the guit I used is poop and I recorded them completely wrong... I believe. Yeah, I tried to take Mesh's advice on putting a little chorus or flange on those tracks, but it seemed to highlight the bad tonal qualities of the guitar and the way I recorded it. I changed the bass's tonal quality a little bit in this last (no more mixing) remix. I was listening to it on another stereo and it was way way to boomy compared to a commercial CD's in the same stereo. You were also saying that the vox were a little buried... I think I fixed that... Although, (and folks tell me if you've run into this), on some sound cards, there is an advanced setting in the volume control panel (not the small one, the big one) called something like "3D enhancement"... most of the time if the card supports this, it is defaulted to "ON"... if it's on, I've noticed that anything in the center channel is completely buried by anything that is stereo (panned left and right - i.e., guitars panned left and right will cover vocals on the center channel - drown them, smuther them)... anyone else run into this??? Lip, I'm not saying you've got this setting on, but what you said about the vocals reminded me of it. Thanks for the kind words about my voice... Hey, I dig CAKE... although I'm not sure about the new song about the "skirt" thing... I'm not liking it as fast as their old stuff... "Reluctantly crouched on the starting line... engines......"

iravage, thanks for the kind words... On that song I was using an old SoundBlaster16 card... I fried the left channel of that card somehow recently so I just bought a SoundBlaster Live Platinum with that nice little LiveDrive thing so I can plug into the front and stop flipping my body over my desk into a pile of electrical spaghetti everytime I try to plug into the rear of my box... Thanks again for the kind words.

iravage, I'm really glad you're enjoying the song... You were asking about my equipment, here's my list: Gibson SG electric guitar, Fender 12-string and 6-string acoustic guitars, Fender Squire bass guitar (P-Bass Special Model), Line-6 POD guitar direct box, Line-6 BassPod, Morley "Bad Horsie" Wah-Wah, ART Tube MP (mic preamp), Shure SM-57 mics, Roland Drums

sjoko2, thanks for listening, yes, this is one of my softer songs... I think I have about 3 ballads to my name... something like that. I appreciate your input, but that's a whole lotta change and I don't want to touch this song anymore :) But I appreciate the detail and time you took to analyze it. Truly. thanks.

CyanJaguar, I haven't been around in so long I forget why you're apologizing (?). Hey, thanks for listening by the way and for the kind words. You're right on the high end on those vox... I shaped them a little bit and I think I might have fixed what you were talking about... I don't think I changed anything on the high-end for the lead... Although, I did bring the volume of the lead track down a little. I think it was too in your face when it came in... er... and now I can't remember if I changed the verb on the vox... I was messing around with EAX, but I'm not sure if I actually implemented it into the vocals... I'm glad you liked it overall.

AlChuck, I'm glad you like the sound of the acoustic... although, I really wanted a smoother sound, but I really suck at recording my 6-string... my 12-string that I used for "All I Live is You" turned out much nicer... I changed the tone on the bass track on the last remix... I'm not sure if it fixes the problem you were talking about, but it fixed some things that I noticed about it.... I tried Buck's suggestion about the flange and I also tried chorus... It really didn't fit well to my ears... I could "envision" it audibly, but when I applied the effect with different parameters, etc it just didn't sit well... Thanks about the guitar solo... Yes, I use a POD, I love it, although it is also one of the reasons I went back and remix/remastered all of the songs on my "Valley of the DogZ" CD... it's too dang bottom heavy to just plug and play it... Same thing with my Bass POD...

Thanks folks for all your feedback regarding "Faded". If you want to hear the latest and LAST remix of this song, it's here: http://mp3.com/smartapple

Thanks again ~ Teddie (Smart Apple)
 
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