new monitors ... ns-10s

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Someone is going to jump in here surely and tell WHY speaker frequency response charts are 100 % inaccurate, but suffice to say, you can measure almost any speaker and end up with any spec you want, without messing with eq's or any of that trickery. Speaker response charts are every bit as accurate as mic response specs
 
hey j-man when are you going to shut your tater trap? did you miss the part about there being 1000's of albums, among those great albums, mixed on ns10's? Jesus your head must be filled with solidified water buffalo excrement. I'm going to start writing a new homerec soap opera with the primary theme being a "hot love triangle of low iq's" between the j-man, zallen and boray. You've admitted you are unsure about matching amps to speakers yet you keep on with your dimwitted tirade. I have figured out YOU HAVE NEVER USED NS10'S. j-man you are inexperienced and your opinion is bunk. did you read my post where I said i checked my mixes on meyer labs monitors, in mono, with a subwoofer, boombox, home stereo etc? Beleive me if my mixes sound good on the meyer labs speakers and subwoofer combination they're gonna sound good on your stupid ass audiophile stereo system with liquid cooled speaker coils and silver wiring that you jack off too every night. Your description of bad mixes is the opposite of what you would acheive with ns10's. harsh mids? the ns10 emphasizes mids. Now I know you are also listening to a shitty monitoring system. j-man, get something else besides computer speakers.
 
Jfreeman- You saying that you don't like a lot of modern mixes really proves the value of the NS10's. It's been a more recent thing to use all those other monitors you love so much. You also have to distinguish between bad mixing and bad mastering which is a bit impossible unless you get to hear the unmastered mixdowns.
 
hey jman, why don't you write a letter to al schmitt and tell him his mixes suck because he uses ns10's? did you realize most home stereo systems are eq'd at the factory to sound "pleasing" on the showroom floor and at home? funny how the ns10's roughly follow this eq curve. Although I have found a subwoofer to help while mixing on them, espceially since lots of home stereo setups now include subwoofers. I know quite a few engineers who don't like them either which is fine but you can't deny the fact good mixes can be done one them. (with the right power amp, tuned room and good cabling; wink, wink)
 
Wow... I love to push buttons.It's so fun.Say what you want about inexperience. I'm laughing at the ignorance. I don't just dislike modern mixes you retards, damn near all of em from anytime period. I can name about 15 recordings total that I think are excellent. Everything else is just "professional". I never said I was that great either.

NS-10's still suck !

Someone is going to jump in here surely and tell WHY speaker frequency response charts are 100 % inaccurate, but suffice to say, you can measure almost any speaker and end up with any spec you want, without messing with eq's or any of that trickery. Speaker response charts are every bit as accurate as mic response specs
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Your so full of shit your eyes are brown. That's why you say things that make no sense. You couldn't even understand what I said. I make too much sense. are you talking about swapping out the lab mic, or changing the distance from the speaker, all shit that will just make it look worse not better.

NS-10's suck!

You've admitted you are unsure about matching amps to speakers yet you keep on with your dimwitted tirade. I have figured out YOU HAVE NEVER USED NS10'S. j-man you are inexperienced and your opinion is bunk.
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No... I don't believe I would admit something that is not true. Since I have designed and built my own pre-amplifier idiot. Your slamming the wrong person duuuuuude.

NS-10's suck!

they're gonna sound good on your stupid ass audiophile stereo system with liquid cooled speaker coils
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It's ferrofluid cooled you idiot, it has nothing to do with liquid aspect, gaaawd. It's more like a magnetized oil.You don't even know what it is but you slam it. Your kind MUST have evolved from apes.


NS-10's suck!

Your description of bad mixes is the opposite of what you would acheive with ns10's.
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My statement in no regard had anything to do directly with the NS-10. Just many systems simultaneously. The NS-10 is among MANY terrible speaker systems.
 
sweetnubs said:
I'm going to start writing a new homerec soap opera with the primary theme being a "hot love triangle of low iq's" between the j-man, zallen and boray.
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Damn! I never get cast in a leading role.

Third dancer from the right yet again... grumble grumble....
 
nah, youre too level headed littledog! Nubz always pisses people off, I go too far on tangents, and Jake will just tell it like it is out of spite
 
"Your so full of shit your eyes are brown. That's why you say things that make no sense. You couldn't even understand what I said. I make too much sense. are you talking about swapping out the lab mic, or changing the distance from the speaker, all shit that will just make it look worse not better."

Really? Surely someone will come in here and put it in simple enough terms for you to understand. There is NO *standard* in speaker testing. None at all. Using the EXACT same mic, room and speaker I could come up with infinite numbers of totally different responses that were all 100 % valid. There isnt a speaker in the universe that doesn't measure +15dB at 1khz

then again there isnt a speaker in the universe that doesnt measure - 15dB at 1khz

both measured in the same room thru the same power amp, thru the same mic

scoff if you like, but do some research, and youll find yourself eating " sole " food
 
yeah but your talking about speakers that have terrible polar responses and crappy dispersion.(which is why the Genelecs and the Timepiece have that horn attached to the dome tweeter.)

Which if your testing the NS-10 you are right. You could even put the tweeter and woofer out of phase and get a 24db null if you wanted to also.

But there is a standard that most speakers specs go by, which is 1 watt at 1 meter at varying degrees on and off axis.

(which should be stated with the specs, and if they aren't you should be able to find them in a review somewhere if you actually look for it.)

I suppose if you put the mic in one corner and the speaker in another and ran a sweep you might get some crappy inaccurate representations.

Most analyzers calculate out the inconsitencies in the mic if you know the curve for it and plug it into the analysis. You should do some research on what the analysis standards ARE before you say that there aren't any. You should check with AES for that. Most testing is done in an anechoic chamber, so I don't know how the room at that point could have anything to do with it.
I figure if you are gonna spend your hard earned money on something you should know exactly what it is you are buying BEFORE you buy it instead of following somebody off a bridge.
Shit is expensive.

I have tested my speakers in my room all over the place and I have never seen anything like you are describing, not even close. The only real notice in frequency response change that I noticed is that the graph of the response was lower in amplitude. Which is to be expected. It's easy to tell the little bugaboos as late erflections. Especially with a waterfall graph.

Try that with the NS-10 and you will get exactly what you descibed.When you mix with them you have to sit with your head in a vise.Do it with mine and you won't.


Oh yeah I never said that you CAN'T make a good mix on the NS-10. It is just terrible if you have to try. Even a pig can roll in the flowers sometimes. It's just not something you would expect.

If you know how to use them great. But I still say they don't give you an accurate enough representation to tell you what's going on with your gear or your tracks. They just smear too much of the sound. Inever meant to say you can't make something descent with them. Hell Iv'e heard descent stuff done on computer speakers and 6X9's out of a car. I still wouldn't try it.

If the NS-10 could get a better spec than it shows, don't you think they would print it?
 
YOU need to learn something about speaker specs...I think car salsemen call it " creative interpretation" ..

dont even bother me about waterfall charts

and now not only do you insult the NS-10, you insult the venerable 6X9!!!!

Jensen 6X9's mounted in the trunk of a muscle car, powered by a V-8 MOVING down the road, is the ULTIMATE test to see if you printed a good rock mix. nothing even comes close and its what this shit is all about. I got some 6x9's mounted in a hollowed out NS-10 box, and I've mixed quite a bit of stuff on them as well, I just cant keep them from frying...one day Ill figure out the right combo and be one happy mofo

hi-fi is good, hi fi is grand, but RELEVANCE is even grander
 
pipelineaudio said:

Jensen 6X9's mounted in the trunk of a muscle car, powered by a V-8 MOVING down the road, is the ULTIMATE test to see if you printed a good rock mix
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I'll give ya that. I still believe I would trust the specs before I trusted what somebody else told me that may or may not be an experienced objective judge.

It makes a good test, but I personally wouldn't MIX or TRACK on them. That's all. I didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings. I'm into the engineering. To me... everything should be as transparent as it can be while still doing it's job.
 
"To me... everything should be as transparent as it can be while still doing it's job."

thats the holy grail, but we arent coming anywhere near that anytime soon Im afraid.
 
like i said get a hold of al schmitt and tell him his mixes suck. He really is an awful engineer you know.

1. j-man you said yourself you are not a scientific expert when it comes to matching amps and monitors. big deal you built a fucking preamp. if you are actually an engineer you have no time to do such a thing and it is more cost effective to buy one. I'm sure you had a 20 step gain switch and wired it up too. if you didn't, you built a shitty preamp. you are so full of shit. anyone can follow a circuit diagragm and superimpose the diagragm on a breadboard. you don't have to know shit about anything except how to solder and not to touch capaciters to build a preamp. building a preamp does not have to entail designing a circuit. I am so fucking on to you.

2. I was just poking fun at audiophile wankers as you are obviously one such strange creature who probably jacks off to the light of his laser turntable. Like i really thought the coils were cooled by liquid nitrogen. how's that $500 silver conductor cable treating you?

3. "The NS-10 is among MANY terrible speaker systems." it is a monitoring system dumbass. A monitor is an enclosure containing one or more speakers. If you were such an expert you should have known this.

4. ns10's definately are not the greatest speakers from a technical point but that does not mean you can't do great mixes on them. engineering history has already proven this so shut the fuck up. Although I am generally a "clean" kind of guy precision is not always the goal. If it was everything thing should sound great recorded with measurement mics through a massenburg pre.
 
A.I don't use silver... I use welding cables.

B. I have a bachelors in EE from Purdue. That's why I built my own amp so I could pass the class, and have something worthwhile at the end.

C.You obviously have issues with masterbation.

D. The NS-10 was designed as a house speaker not a studio monitor. Hey...my house is an enclosure with one or more speakers in it,... does that make it a monitor? What about my car? My boat? All monitors I guess.

E. Automitove history has proven you can start a car with a crank, that doesn't mean I want a car without a starter.

originally posted by sweetnubs

You better shut the fuck up j-man...before I run and tell my mommy on you. You hurt my little feelings. I really like my NS-10's
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You sound like my kid.
 
Jfreeman, you cant resist a discussion about monitors, can you :)


You know, I am in the same school of thought as you... really truly good audiophile speakers make great monitors. I like my B&Ws...

But on the other hand, if these guys, and there are a lot of them, can get good mixes on a crappy ass sounding pair of Yamaha home low fi speakers... then the crappy NS-10s are a good tool.

IMO if you mix something and they mix something, skill being equal, yours will likely sound better on my B&Ws and theirs will probably sound better in my car. Fortunately for NS-10 owners 99 outa 100 guys aren’t listening on B&Ws and paradigms or even polk audio and other medium fi... they are listening on their Aiwa mini system or their JBhell towers.


Put my point is judge a mix on its quality, not on the tools used to make it. Judge an engineer on his ability to make a mix... not on his preference of crappy ass Yamahas.
 
No.... I can't resist a discussion on monitors. Everyone is so touchy. I love the taboo. hehe

Your'e right IMO Gunther.

I agree completely!

I'm just sick of having to listen to mixes made for cars. I never judged anybodys mixing ability. I never said that I was great at mixing either. But I do know a great recording when I hear one, and those are the recordings I try to learn more from,...not the N-sync,Brittany spears junk(Which may or may not be done on the NS-10'S {basically car and club mixes} ).

I never said you CAN'T get a good mix on the NS-10. *I* just wouldn't want to try and I especially wouldn't want to have to LEARN on them. I don't check what monitors people use. I don't really care unless it sounds good...then I might try and find out. I can usually tell what quality of speaker was used when I hear different mixes, cause I can't come to the belief that there could be that many "professional" mediocre ears. I thought everyone that mixed was an enthusiast of high quality. I guess I may be wrong.

Again... I'm not judging anybody....just the product of a particular manufacturer.

That's all.

But on the other hand, if these guys, and there are a lot of them, can get good mixes on a crappy ass sounding pair of Yamaha home low fi speakers... then the crappy NS-10s are a good tool.
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Question.... are there any mixes that you know of that were done on the NS-10 that sound really good on your B&W's? If there are... point one out...let me listen...I would definately like to hear, THEN maybe I'll shut up.

I'm just trying to steer people to make mixes that sound good for ME on MY system. Maybe I'm selfish. My speakers just make it easy for me to hear other peoples mistakes. There is always something not quite right. Well I guess I said enough for now.
 
Jfreeman- You would have a harder time finding albums that weren't mixed or checked on NS10's then ones that weren't. If you want to hear a lot of non NS10 mixes then check out the MP3 Forum.

Just out of curiosity what is your background? Do you have any links to your recordings?
 
this is weird, I always get nailed because I am TOO anal about quality, while I defend 6x9's and stuff, I guess Im devil's advocate here, but no matter, I dont use NS-10's, but still I wouldnt be stupid enough to say that hi quality mixes cant be made on them

frequency response, time, area of coverage, pick ONE... each of these is at odds with each of the other ones...NO speaker is very accurate at all in more than one of these parameters, dont kid yourself. Some speakers are pleasant to listen to, you think that means accurate?

All we can really hope for is speakers that you can listen to and enjoy, and then hopefully learning them good enough to make them translate to other speakers.

You guys mention the B&W's and maybe you like the Klein and Hummels as well, both of those ranges have silky hi's which dont cause fatigue even over long periods of time. However, try to make them THUMP! No impact whatsoever. My hero and favorite engineer mixes on Ev monitors! His shit sounds great everywhere, but I think 95 % of the universe would rather get a root canal than work on those.
 
I understand that. I just wanted to know of something that sounded good on his B&W's in particular cause it might sound good on my speakers. Commercial or whatever.

My whole complaint here is finding rock that sounds good on my hi-fi system. Jazz usually sounds great, but rock usually sounds like ass, no dynamics at all, It's all squahed to shit.Have heard a couple Ozzy CD's that were pretty good.

As far as having a link to any stuff that I have done. No not in particular right now. I will go through my stuff here and see what I can pull up. My studio is without heat right now,(FUCKING RACCOONS ATE A WHOLE IN MY ROOF)but I have the computers networked so I can get to my files. I do have allot of crap,... CRAP being the key word here.

Some stuff I recorded well, but the performances sucked, others the performance were good but recording sucked. I never claimed to be some great mixer here. I am a great listener with a good ear. I grew up around Hi-Fi. I just don't always know how to go about getting what I want when I mix multitracked music. I can record live pretty good though.

My background...well...when I was 6 my dad built a studio and I took piano lessons from him. Then I took sax in 5th grade and learned guitar in 10th grade. Then I learned how to play drums and bass cause they were always out in the studio...so why not.

I went with my dad to run sound for bands all the time and he was an electrical engineer so he knew all the scientific stuff about music. I learned everything he taught me and then I went to school for EE at Purdue.

Then my dad made a trade with me for all his old equipment for a car cause he didn't have time for it anymore. He sold me the studio, and I started getting into recording for myself and got into digital shit.

Then I got sick of my computer running digital recording programs like ass and learned about how to build computers so I could make the best instead of looking for a gateway or something that may have a bunch of extra crap I didn't want. With the knowledge I learned from that I figured I would start my own business selling custom computers to people like me.

Then I had a couple lab jobs in the mean time and got sick of it. Got a job at the TV station, worked on some commercials and stuff, ran camera and mixed, and then ran engineering there. Got sick of the bullshit got another lab job at Crown Audio where I met a guy that does reviews for speakers and got turned on to the speakers I have now.

Then I hooked up with my dad doing sound analysis for different places putting in sound systems.

So now I know how to play music, I know the electronics, I know the computer shit, I have the equipment, and FINALLY getting around to learning how to mix RIGHT. I have done a bunch of other superfulous shit too.

I used to play sax 2 years for Pine Top Perkins, I don't know if you have heard of him but he's an old blues legend REALLY old. I was never on an album with him but I have allot of bootleg stuff from the clubs. Uh... I've worked with a guy that had a Killer studio that got all kinds of commercial jobs and I got to help out alot. Been around music and science all my life. All aspects of it.

I'm in a cover band right now and run my own business. I make computers basically, networking, web design and graphics. I'm just sick of driving all the time, especially in the winter. When summer gets here I get back into playing shows and take a break until I can get back out in the studio after all the work is done.

Then PLAY time begins.
 
pipelineaudio said:

frequency response, time, area of coverage, pick ONE... each of these is at odds with each of the other ones...NO speaker is very accurate at all in more than one of these parameters, dont kid yourself. Some speakers are pleasant to listen to, you think that means accurate?
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Generally, I would say you are correct, not in the case with the Timepiece. In all three areas the quality is superb. I doubt there are many like it.

Stand up sit down test...No wash out or change in sound.
Side to side... around the room.....just the same.
Phase and imaging....Outstanding. In a large area of the room.
Frequency response.....+/- 1-2 db Max.

They're fucking awesome...I'm telling ya.This ain't hype either. Iv'e tested em. They are fucking accurate. That is why so much music sounds chincy. Live recordings are incredible. Becker Brothers, Spyra Gyra, Linda Ronstadt, Gerald Albright. All Awesome.
 
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