New cab on the way

[jonny deep]

So I just ordered this new cab: -

It's from a custom builder in Bristol (Custom Cabinets and Guitar Amp Cabs | Zilla Music UK). They usually cost £240 unloaded, but I got this one ex-demo for £260 loaded with 2 12" Tayden True Brit (British-made Greenback clones) speakers. The guy tells me it's been used at a couple of trade shows and is otherwise in mint condition - just with the speakers run in.

Should arrive tomorrow - v. excited.

 

[Greg_L]

Cool. Congrats.

What amp will you be running into it?

 

[jonny deep]

Cool. Congrats.

What amp will you be running into it?

Thanks. For the time being I'll be using my little Vox Night Train 15W head. I'm moving house in a few weeks, then I'm going to build a box in box iso-box thingy in the garage so I can crank it.

Then, I might think about a higher powered amp (and speakers if I go over 25W). My current 1x12 cab has a G12H30 in it, so I'm thinking of swapping out one of the Greenbacks with this, might give a good sound and I'll be able to point the mic at each speaker for L&R guitars.

 

[Greg_L]

Thanks. For the time being I'll be using my little Vox Night Train 15W head. I'm moving house in a few weeks, then I'm going to build a box in box iso-box thingy in the garage so I can crank it.

Then, I might think about a higher powered amp (and speakers if I go over 25W). My current 1x12 cab has a G12H30 in it, so I'm thinking of swapping out one of the Greenbacks with this, might give a good sound and I'll be able to point the mic at each speaker for L&R guitars.

Yup, you could do that. Keep in mind though that the G12H30 is a "loud" speaker. I don't know what those Greenback clones are rated at, but a traditional GB is a pretty soft 96-98db speaker. The G12H30's 100 db rating can make it seem pretty overpowering out in the room. If you mic both speakers you will notice that you'll probably have to turn the gain down on the G12H30 mic to have them track at the same input level. That's been my experience anyway with Vintage 30's (100db) and Greenbacks (97db). The Vintage 30's are noticeably louder with all things being equal.

 

[jonny deep]

Yup, you could do that. Keep in mind though that the G12H30 is a "loud" speaker. I don't know what those Greenback clones are rated at, but a traditional GB is a pretty soft 96-98db speaker. The G12H30's 100 db rating can make it seem pretty overpowering out in the room. If you mic both speakers you will notice that you'll probably have to turn the gain down on the G12H30 mic to have them track at the same input level. That's been my experience anyway with Vintage 30's (100db) and Greenbacks (97db). The Vintage 30's are noticeably louder with all things being equal.

I checked out the specs and the Tayden 'Greenbacks' are 99dB, while the G12H30 is 100dB, so should be fairly close. However, I probably won't record both speakers simultaneously - I think minor performance variation between takes is good for getting guitar spread between L&R.

 

[Greg_L]

I checked out the specs and the Tayden 'Greenbacks' are 99dB, while the G12H30 is 100dB, so should be fairly close. However, I probably won't record both speakers simultaneously - I think minor performance variation between takes is good for getting guitar spread between L&R.

Right. 99/100 is close enough and I bet they'll sound great together.

I've tried miking different models of speakers simultaneously for the same track to blend and I don't like it myself. Phasing is a problem, and all the manual time shifting in the world didn't help. Maybe I'm not good at it or maybe I just don't like it. I have occasionally liked two mics on the same speaker, but again phasing is an issue and the results, to me for my kind of sound, just weren't worth the effort. I get what I think are good enough results with one mic on one speaker. But I do like using different speakers for different tracks. I think I'm doing it backwards though. I think the general consensus is to mic the best speaker the best you can and keep it there while altering the amp/guitar/settings for variation in tone. I do it the other way. I leave the amp alone and mic different speakers. I usually have 3 guitar tracks, and I have 3 speaker models to choose from. For rhythms I've been liking the Greenback on one side, G12T-75 on the other, and the V30 for leads. I'm a big fan in how speakers impart different characteristics to the guitar/amps sound. I think speakers are generally overlooked in regard to their role in tone.

 

[minerman]

Nice Jonny, congrats!!!!
On the two mic thing, it wouldn't hurt to try it, but my experiences have been about the same as Greg's, but I know the reason my tracks didn't sound "right", because I don't have much (if any) experience getting 2 mics in phase, & like Greg one mic is enough for me for right now.....Eventually/later on I would like to learn/get better at the multi-mic thing though....

A little advice on the ISO box I can give is to make it quite a bit bigger (inside dimensions) than your cab, especially where your speakers are gonna point/where your mic is gonna be. Another thing is if possible, make it a double box (box in a box) with as much space in between the boxes as you can (stuffing the "space" with Roxul), & it should make it a lot more soundproof than the single box (like mine)...

 

[jonny deep]

Nice Jonny, congrats!!!!
On the two mic thing, it wouldn't hurt to try it, but my experiences have been about the same as Greg's, but I know the reason my tracks didn't sound "right", because I don't have much (if any) experience getting 2 mics in phase, & like Greg one mic is enough for me for right now.....Eventually/later on I would like to learn/get better at the multi-mic thing though....

A little advice on the ISO box I can give is to make it quite a bit bigger (inside dimensions) than your cab, especially where your speakers are gonna point/where your mic is gonna be. Another thing is if possible, make it a double box (box in a box) with as much space in between the boxes as you can (stuffing the "space" with Roxul), & it should make it a lot more soundproof than the single box (like mine)...

Thanks miner - I'm very excited to try it out.

I never intended to record two mics together, although I'd maybe set two up in the iso box so I don't have to go in and move it between takes.

As for the iso box itself, my plan is a box in a box with 3" of mineral wool in between and round the inside of the inner box. At the moment, the inner box is twice the depth of the 2x12, so the mic will sit in front of the cab in a space the same size as the cab. I'm concerned this isn't room for the speakers to move enough air, so I might make it three times the depth, but the outer box is already huge in my current plan.

 

[minerman]

You're on the right track with the ISO box Jonny, the outer dimensions of my box are: 36" L x 31" H x 27" W......I made mine so I could wheel it in/out of the room/house if I ever need to. I also turn my cabs up on their side so I'd be able to do that too.....So far with my box, I haven't had any problems with it not moving air, sure it's about as airtight as I could get it, but I don't think it affects the tone very much, I could be wrong, but so far so good.....

The 3" of mineral wool is a really good idea, that's what I have on all sides of my 1x12 inside my box, I basically wrapped the Roxul panels in old sheets to keep the fibers from getting all over everything, & laid one on the bottom, put the 1x12 in, & put the other panels on all sides. I actually have about 6" on the speaker side, I was actually able to fold the panels to make 'em fit, & the sheets actually hold the rockwool in place & keep it from falling apart......

One thing I wish I'd changed/done differently is the gooseneck. I wish I'd bought a small boom arm instead of the gooseneck, while it moves a lot more freely, & I can bend it where I need it, it doesn't want to stay in place sometimes, the boom wouldn't do that, but it's not a big deal, as I plan on building another box before long anyway to put inside my existing box.....

Keep us posted on your progress, & post some clips when you get your new cab!!!

 

[ecc83]

I doubt that you need to go bigger for the iso box. Speaker do not really "move air".
What will happen is that the box will have its own resonant frequency (plus 3 major standing waves and all the harmonics!) which might be nice or nasty, lap of the Dieties mate!

Two major factors will govern sound leakage. Mechanical coupling of the cab to the box, so stand the cab on some soft foam to de-couple it from the base.
Then the box must be airtight and so you cannot use jacks for connecting speakers instead use XLR 4 (to avoid confusion with mics. SM57s are tough but they will not be happy with 20volts of amp!).

Dave.

 

[jonny deep]

I doubt that you need to go bigger for the iso box. Speaker do not really "move air".
What will happen is that the box will have its own resonant frequency (plus 3 major standing waves and all the harmonics!) which might be nice or nasty, lap of the Dieties mate!

Two major factors will govern sound leakage. Mechanical coupling of the cab to the box, so stand the cab on some soft foam to de-couple it from the base.
Then the box must be airtight and so you cannot use jacks for connecting speakers instead use XLR 4 (to avoid confusion with mics. SM57s are tough but they will not be happy with 20volts of amp!).

Dave.

Hey Dave - thanks for your input, maybe I'll stick with the box size as is, then. I'm confused as to why I can't use jacks - any cable, XLR or otherwise, will have to come out the box lid or maybe into a port installed into the wood - please can you explain, I think I'm missing something?

 

[ecc83]

Hey Dave - thanks for your input, maybe I'll stick with the box size as is, then. I'm confused as to why I can't use jacks - any cable, XLR or otherwise, will have to come out the box lid or maybe into a port installed into the wood - please can you explain, I think I'm missing something?

Well the neatest way to do things is to mount the connectors on a stout ally plate then take the wires thru the inner wall sealing them with plenty of builders white sealer (or snot as it is known in the trade here!) But any small air leaks can whistle or "chuff" and jacks will leak even with a plug inserted.

How were you thinking of rigging the mics? I would have short XLR "tails" in the cab wired out to said ally plate..Threes of course!

I have not built an iso cab (yet! Might make one at work.) but I have built many speaker cabs. Hi fi, line source, bass G, you name it. The connection thing applies for sealed cabs, as indeed it does getting audio thru a wall.

Dave.

 

[jonny deep]

Well the neatest way to do things is to mount the connectors on a stout ally plate then take the wires thru the inner wall sealing them with plenty of builders white sealer (or snot as it is known in the trade here!) But any small air leaks can whistle or "chuff" and jacks will leak even with a plug inserted.

How were you thinking of rigging the mics? I would have short XLR "tails" in the cab wired out to said ally plate..Threes of course!

I have not built an iso cab (yet! Might make one at work.) but I have built many speaker cabs. Hi fi, line source, bass G, you name it. The connection thing applies for sealed cabs, as indeed it does getting audio thru a wall.

Dave.

Ok, got you - thanks! I currently intend to run speaker and XLR mic cable between the lid and body of each box - there'll be rubber draught excluder glued onto the lid that will squish around the cable (and be generally useful for sealing the join), and I can drill partial holes to facilitate this further.

However, I had entertained the idea of installing XLR and jack ports on the sides of the boxes to avoid broken seals at the lid joint, but I'll avoid jacks if I do this. This thing will be out in the garage, so doesn't have to be perfectly silent, but I do need to attenuate the sound considerably.

I will require long speaker and XLR cables to run from the studio to the garage and back. I've read I can just use any two core cable (like cheap lamp cable) for the speaker cable. I guess I need proper XLR cable for the mic cable? Any ideas anyone?

 

[jonny deep]

Actually, I have a drawer full of XLR mic cables - I'll join them all together.

 

[jonny deep]

The cab arrived yesterday. It looks great and sounds really good too. I was surprised at how different the sound is to my 1x12 G12H30. I knew it would be different and I've watched those videos of speaker comparisons, but I was still surprised. I think the 2x12 cab size/configuration adds low end, plus the Greenback-type speaker is a darker speaker.

I opened up the back, expecting to see two 16ohm speakers in parallel, but was disappointed to find two 4 ohms in series. I was planning to switch one out with my 16 ohm G12H30 to give a different sound and two recording options, depending where I stick the mic. Much Googling later I find that there's no sensible way I can use these speakers, except as a pair in series. This was a bit disheartening and I was starting to think I'd paid for two useless speakers and would end up having to buy another pair to use this cab, or I'd have to get into an argument with the man who builds these to resolve it.

I phoned the guy this morning and he immediately suggests sending out a pair of new Celestion Greenbacks. I decided that as I'm getting new speakers, I'd get a Greenback and a V30 (the V30 is the same sensitivity as my G12H30, so might be more balanced, although I'm only going to use for recording in an iso-box). He's going to charge me an extra £25 as they are new speakers, which I'm more than happy with, especially considering I now get three speaker options. He'll cover the postage costs to send the new ones and get the pair of 4 ohm speakers collected.

So, big thanks to Paul at ZillaCabs! He did describe it to me as a parallel-wired 8 ohm cab, so immediately rectified the situation as best he could. Distance selling regulations here do protect me, but it's so nice to not have to argue and fight for those rights as one often has to with bigger companies. I am once again a happy camper .

(Sorry for the essay!)

 

[Greg_L]

Good deal! So you're gonna have what now? A V30 and a G12H-30 in one cab, and a Greenback in another?

 

[jonny deep]

Good deal! So you're gonna have what now? A V30 and a G12H-30 in one cab, and a Greenback in another?

If I put the V30 and G12H30 in the 2x12, then I'd get a balanced sound as they're both 100dB. I guess I'm going to experiment as to which speakers I like best to record and have those in the 2x12 in the iso box. The remaining speaker I'll keep in my 1x12 inside the house for practice and another recording option.

Which leads me to a question I've been meaning to ask. When you record one speaker in your 4x12, how much do you find the other speaker interferes with the recording (if you can tell at all)? If you have a louder speaker in the same cab, might this spill in or even overwhelm the sound, even when the quiter speaker is close-miced with an SM57?

 

[Greg_L]

If I put the V30 and G12H30 in the 2x12, then I'd get a balanced sound as they're both 100dB. I guess I'm going to experiment as to which speakers I like best to record and have those in the 2x12 in the iso box. The remaining speaker I'll keep in my 1x12 inside the house for practice and another recording option.

Which leads me to a question I've been meaning to ask. When you record one speaker in your 4x12, how much do you find the other speaker interferes with the recording (if you can tell at all)? If you have a louder speaker in the same cab, might this spill in or even overwhelm the sound, even when the quiter speaker is close-miced with an SM57?

The speakers in my 4x12 are all relatively the same efficiency/sensitivity/whatever you wanna call it. They don't interfere with eachother. If the speakers are mismatched and one or more is significantly louder than the others, the potential is there for some interference. But I think if you're close miking, the interference would be negligible. But just as a precaution, if I off-axis mic a speaker, I point the mic away from the others.

Having said that, my 2x12 V30 cab is louder than the 4x12 at low to moderate volumes. I can dial in my amp, and mic a Greenback or G12T-75 in my 4x12 and set the gain on the pre to record at a certain level. Fine, no problem. If I keep everything the same, but switch cabs and move the mic to the same exact spot on one of the V30's, it will track a few db's hotter. I have to turn my pre down about two clicks to get the V30's to track at the same level as the Greenbacks or G12T-75's with everything else being equal.

 

[jonny deep]

So my new speakers arrived yesterday . I just finished installing them and putting the cabs back together this morning. I haven't done any soldering since I was a kid when my dad taught me - seemed to go ok.

I've got the Greenback and G12H30 in the 2x12 and the V30 in the 1x12.

I've had a bit of a go on both cabs this morning: the 2x12 sounds great now, I much prefer to when it had the two Greenback clones in it. Also, the V30 sounds great in the 1x12. That said, none of these speakers are really run in yet (two are brand new), and I guess they'll get a bit warmer/darker as they get used.

I don't have the time to be experimenting with different combinations at the moment or for recording samples for you, I'm afraid. I have to pack the house to move in a couple of weeks and the studio gets packed first - otherwise, nothing gets done!

I will say this, though. It doesn't seem to matter how much money and time I spend on buying, building and modding gear - I'm still shit at playing guitar .