New Aussie

Enchilada

Enchilada

Strange person.
This is my first post and its long winded :D
I'm starting my own little recording setup and this is what I have in mind. Remebrer that everything in Australia is rather expensive. I'll be recording Australian hip-hop with the music coming from my computer and vocals rapped. Also punk rock (drums, bass, 1 guitar and 2 voices). The vocalist in this band sounds like a cross between Ben Lee , Ben Folds and Thom Yourke.

Mics:
Either a Studio Projects B1 ($199) for an all round vocal/accoustic guitar/amp/drum overhead/the works mic
or a MXL V67G ($180 imported w/ shock mount) for vocals/drum overhead and a Shure SM58 ($149) for accoustic guitar/amp

Pre:
Behringer Mic 200 ($129)

Begining of a rack:
Behringer VIRTUALIZER PRO DSP2024P ($275)
Behringer BEHRINGER FBQ1502 ($229)
Behringer COMPOSER PRO-XL MDX2600 ($244)

I know everyone likes to bash Bheri gear but I've hear nothing but good things about all of the above. I think that that isn't a bad start for $1100

After that I'm not sure how I want to record it (suggestions welcome). As long as it doesn't involve a PC. One thing that I can't understand is what is the point of a mixer, like the fabulous Bheri UB1024? Unless I'm just doing live recordings or lots of mics on drums whats the point of 6ch in and 2ch out? I've been looking everywhere but I can't find anywhere that really expleins the point of a mixer when all the recorders I've looked at have a mixer built in.
A mate of mine has a tascam 4-track taper recorder so I'll use that for now.
 
Howdy from Sydney...

If you don't want to be involved with PCs, at your stated level of expenditure I'd tend to be channelling my funds towards a Boss 8 track recorder as cheap as I could get one, which will generally give you pres, effects, dynamics etc of some sort, rather than assembling a rack of very low end stuff and routing it to what I'm assuming is a 4 track cassette recorder. Save more money is another possibility, depending upon your circumstances.

Someone else will give you mic input, I haven't used any of them, except the 58, which I find more useful for hammering in nails than recording acoustic guitar, but will work fine on amped electric and probably OK on rappish vocals as well, but I'm not a vocalist, so don't listen to me!

If you're ever in the market I have an excess of small diaphragm condensers - have a pair of Rode NT5s I'd let go for mid three hundred probably.

Good luck
 
Enchi,

I'm loathe to give too much advice here as I don't use a PC for recording to and apart from a headphone amp I don't use any Behri rack gear.

From what you said I feel you need to stop worrying about mics and pre's, etc., and spend some more time learning about the available options for recording, for example Armistice's good suggestion of a Boss recorder............find out what "all in one" mixer/recorders fall within or close to your budget and put the time into learning and understanding whether they would suit your needs. Once you have a handle on that, then start worrying about what you will need to go with it.

If you are going to be recording a band, I would strongly suggest having a minimum of 8 tracks...........even 16 doesn't go far, e.g;

To start with you should put down a click track.

A very basic drum setup..........1 overhead, 1 kick and 1 snare. With a wise choice of mics and careful placement of the o/head you can get a good drum sound, but it will not have any stereo imaging......so there's 3 tracks.

Bass.....1 track
Rhythm guitar......1 track
Lead guitar......1 track
Main vox......1 track
Backing vox......1 track

There's 9 tracks there and we haven't even started to get ambitious........no pair of o/heads, no tracks for extra bits the guitarist may want to add (believe me once a guitarist realises there may be spare tracks, they go out of control ;) ), etc, etc.

There are a number of "all in one" units on the market or on Ebay...........learn more and then get the best one you can afford with as many tracks as you can afford.


Armi,

How's your CD coming along? Things are going to get interesting here as of tomorrow...........I pick up a Tascam 1" 16 trk analogue baby.........can't wait to hear acoustics recorded on it.

:cool:
 
Fair deal

Yeah I see where you're comming from.
The only thing that I'm worried about is that if I get an all in one recorder will the effects and all that sort of gear be rendered useless down the track?
See I'm going to start out small and gradually build up a studio as a home business.
All the gear I've mentioned so far I've been told are handy even for studios.
eg the mxl V67G I've heard can be tops for smoothing out of strong female voices or as a pair are gold as drum overheads, the behringer is tops for running a computer or a bass DI, I've been told that the compression and reverb on the behringer gear is top notch - blah blah blah etc etc etc.

I don't overly want to use anything that I won't possibly use later.
The main point of the question was how to set up a recording system that would do everything that an all in one system will do but in different bits (if that makes sense).
eg, effects, mixer, recorder all seperate. I've looked all over the net and I've heard people talking about how they have a mixer and a recorder seperate but after 5 days of searching the web I still have no clue how it is done.
Thanks heaps for your input though! :)
 
OK, very simply, I'm one of those who records through a console direct into a dedicated h/disk recorder then mixes back down through the console. I have effects I can access throught the console's auxillaries and I only use the PC for minimal processing of the final mix and burning to CD. In other words, I haven't used an "all in one" so I can't give definitive answers about them.

That said, there is some great work being done on the likes of the Roland VS series and numerous others (you should hear some of Armi's instrumental recordings........fookin' fantastic!!!) and I think for someone starting out they are definitely worth considering as a starting point.

Re the other gear you have mentioned.........

The B1 is a great "bang for buck" mic. It could be described as being "very honest" and as such is probably better suited to recording instruments rather than vocals.

The V67.........I haven't used, but your comment re the female singer seems consistent with most things I've seen said about it over the last couple of years, however, I don't ever recall seeing anyone advocate using them for o/heads.....not saying they wouldn't do OK.

SM58........if all you wanted it for was acoustics and amps then personally, I'd tell you to forget it, you would be far better served by a condenser mic than a dynamic for acoustics and for the dollars, the B1 may be as good a choice as any and it will work quite well in front of an amp.

Out of curiousity, who has been telling you that the Behri gear is "top notch"?

My above comments are made with consideration of the prices of gear over here for someone in your position, and are not necessarily what I may consider to be the best overall choice of gear.

If you could give me an approximate idea of your budget then I may be able to be more specific.

:cool:
 
I was thinking of getting both the SP B1 and the V67G but thought that with 1 condenser and 1 dynamic mic I could get better versitility. Probable a better idea to get 2 condensers.
As it is now I've set aside $1100 for the mics, pre, and the rack gear. I was looking at a $299 mixer and ebay was telling me that $400 was a rough guess for something to record on.
I'm a uni student on a low budget and I'm not sure what
What gear do you have/how much was it?
 
I've been searching the net for the last 5 days and the general idea I get from reviews is that the behri gear is tops for what you pay.

What do you know about the Yamaha MD8 a track midi disc recorder? there's one on eBay ending tomorrow currently sitting under $500

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15199&item=3738729309&rd=1

Or the other one I had a peek ad was the Roland VS840 that is also listed on eBay >$500

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15199&item=3738951953&rd=1

Am I on the right track? I liked the look of the MD8 beause it has 8 tracks that apparently can easily be bounced and I could put each song on a different MD. I like the VS840 because it has built in effects.
 
As I said before I'm not qualified to really comment on any specific "all in one" device. A lot of reviews are not worth much more than the paper they're printed on............have you ever seen a bad review published anywhere ;) .

One place to look for user reviews is here......... http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/index.php? ........you may find some useable info there.

Just sticking with the "all in one" idea...........You don't need a seperate mixer!!! To use condenser mics, you are going to need a recorder which can supply the 48V phantom power for the mics so make sure whatever you may look at has this capability. Check how many tracks it can record similtaneously. Check whether it has built in effects...........they should be adequate for your needs while you're learning the ropes.

Buying second hand has pros and cons............you have to be sure of the condition of what you are buying, does it have a return policy if DOA, etc. On the other hand, you don't spend as much to get started and if you ultimately find the need to upgrade then you don't loose so much on depreciation.

Have a look in the Brand specific forums here (Fostex, Tascam, Roland) and see what people are saying about the gear and ask questions.

:cool:
 
Sorry to hijack your post Enchilada!

Hi Aus - after a bit of a lull, it's going well again - I rerecorded the lead acoustic on Midwinter's Song (seeing it was midwinter and all) after countless awful sounding electric versions and I'm much happier with it. I'm currently working on a latiny sort of track with lots of drums and electric lead which is forcing me to get out of my comfort zone a bit because I just don't do this sort of stuff normally, but the track has a nice groove so I'm sticking with it. That's track 11 - I only need 13, so I'm hoping to wrap up recording in say October, spend a month mixing and getting it to CD in time for Christmas. I also fell in love with a PRS in Allens in Sydney, and although the last thing I needed is a new electric guitar I ended up buying it. I could really have used a new keyboard, but I'm not the most rational of people sometimes. Still paying it off - black cherry Custom 22 with wide fat neck and, of course, birds. Beautiful! Hope you've sold all your Gibbos without any probs... When I've got all the tracks and before I do final mixing I'll burn a copy and send it up to see what you think of it all. I'd love to hear your new 1" too. I'll make it up there sometime! My Sydney friend of the almost guitar purchase threw it in and went back home to Forster (sad story and I'm really glad I didn't buy him that guitar from you as I'd be owning 2 of them about now! - lost his job, blew money on drugs etc etc...)

Enchilada - Behringer make good equipment for the price - no-one really disputes that - a Hyundai Excel is a good car for the price too, but ultimately it's a Hyundai Excel, and while that's OK for certain things, I wouldn't really want to own one long term. Why? Because I don't have to, I can afford a much nicer Mazda. If you can't afford a much nicer Mazda, then there's nothing wrong with buying a Hyundai Excel - you've gotta start somewhere, and it's a fine machine for the price - my point was that if you're recording medium ultimately is a four track cassette portastudio, then your quality is only going to be average, irrespective of what you put in front of it. Trust me, I started out on a Fostex four track cassette recorder and then discovered heaven in the form of a Roland VS840, on which I recorded two complete albums before upgrading to a Yamaha AW4416 on which I'm recording the third one. I can listen to the first two now and cringe at the sound quality (thanks Ausrock, you're too generous!) but back then I thought it was fantastic. We're all gear sluts here of a sort, always seeking better quality - welcome to the club, but I still think you'd be better off in the long run with a multitrack standalone digital recorder given the amount you're saying you have to spend. Other option, as I said originally, is to save more. Be warned, it's a slippery path you're about to tread on, but very fulfilling. Good luck!
 
Good to hear things are going OK. There is a PRS CE22 amongst those Gibsons, but birds are nice ............they are selling slowly and we knew it may take up to 12 months to move most of them so that's OK.

:-)
 
Thanks

Yeah I think that I'll go find a s/h multitrack standalone digital recorder. Not a bad idea to keep it simple while I'm learning. Also following Ausrocks advice if it sux, I'm sure there's someone just like me willing to give a cheapie a go that I could palm it off to :D
Armistice can you post a short wav sample of a song you recorded with a Roland VS840/Yamaha AW4416? (just for comparison) There's one on eBay for < $500 that I'm looking at.
Do you think that one of them could do the trick and can you give me a quick rundown of your experience with them?
Thanks heaps for all your help guys :)

also I decided against the MD8 because apparently the compression makes it sounds crap. From what I've read about the VS840 it sounds like a good place for me to start. The thing I liked about the MD8 was that I could record each song on a different disc and I can do the same wih the VS840 but without compression.
Do you think that it would be a good idea to get one of these to use with a mixer that has phantom power? I'd need it for my MXL V67G that I just bought and because I hate cannon - jack leads (for some reason I just don't think they sound as good)
 
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Ench

Not being into PC-based recording myself, I only barely actually have a PC. Whenever I've had to post MP3s, I've had to rely upon the services of Ausrock by posting him a CD and asking him to convert them and post them for me.

My home PC is a Pentium 75 with a dud CD-ROM, so I can't really post things for you unfortunately. My work PC is much more funky, but as I work for a large bank, is so locked down that I can't install anything on it to post stuff either! However, if you want to send me an address in a PM (private message - see top right of screen), I'm happy to burn a CD for you of AW4416 and VS840 and drop it in the post. You'd have it by Tuesday probably.

Cheers

Aus - have to have those birds!
 
Enchi,

There's also a VS880 with a CD burner on Ebay.au which may be a viable option.

Armi can give you good advice on what else you may need to get started if you purchase one of those recorders...........I don't know if they have phantom power, etc., so you can bug him with questions :D .

Meanwhile, I'm going to sit back and watch my 1" tape going around...........

:cool:
 
how about an adat? you'll need a mixer (i'd suggest a yamah mg over the behri, i've had both), but the adat will give you a usable set of a/d converters in the future... and they can be had secondhand for bw $500-$1000au... you can also link and expand your set up in the future..

the composer is a decent enough compressor.. can't say much for the reverb thing( never heard one).. as far as the eq unit goes generally your better off with a parametric eq in the studio, but your mixer will prob have eq (and pre) on each channel. so i'd perhaps opt for a second compressor before the eq.. or pool the money and buy a higher quality comp, like rnc or dbx or even tla or focusrite (maybe a little pricey).
 
Hey Dr.C.........

I had thought of the Adat option last night, well actually about 2am this morning, but due to the additional costs involved (over and above the Adat itself), in a mixer and outboard gear plus the cost of Adat tapes for the recording medium I scrapped the idea of suggesting it.

:cool:
 
OK Ench - got the address - I'll burn some toons from VS840 and AW4416 on a CD over the weekend and post them to you on Monday. Hopefully it will help your decision-making.

For context, the tracks from the 840 involve no external processing at all, it's all from the box - no microphones even, all plugged direct to the machine (obviously I'm excluding electric guitars here, which were fed from a multi-effect pedal). The tracks from the 4416 use external pres and condenser mics and the afforementioned multi-effect pedal on electric guitars, but apart from that it's all in the box as well.

One thing to watch out for, as Aus has alluded to - phantom power - 840 didn't have it, in fact I didn't even know what it was back then...

Cheers
 
aus, your right it can get pricey, but not too pricey...

s/h adat $700
mg 12/4 $500
multicomm $300

thats a pretty decent eight track set up for $1500 with pobably better pres, converters, eq and dynamics (not to mention flexibility) than the all in one alternatives... you could probably throw in an alesis microverb for under $200..

the cool thing about the all in one boxes is the portabilty, and the misely space they take up, not to mention the "plug and play" capabilities...

in the end any set up will have its good points and bad points.. just happy it's not my decision ;)
 
What do you think of these?

Thanks a ton for that Armi!
Another alternative I was looking at is the Korg D16.
My local music store is having a sale and they have one for $1495 brand new. Apparently that's half the RRP.
Its a little out of my budget at the moment but I fugure that I could lay-buy or something.
Have you heard anything about these? Also you don't stil have your old VS840 do you ? ;)

I bought a microphone from USA today. The MXL V67G. They retail here for $499 but all up mine cost $221 including a shock mount, a lead, postage and the darn Western Union fees. Not bad.
 
Sold it for $1000 about 2 years ago - got a friend who's got one though - I gotta tell you, the interface isn't real crash hot, I have trouble working out how to use it these days. I'd save up for the Korg - hit your band members for a contribution! - I haven't heard much about it but I'm sure it's a good machine. Have a poke around on Google and I'm sure you'll turn up some reviews.

Cheers
 
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