New AT Kick Mic.

No, I haven't tried it. It may look like an intresting product, but personally, I just don't get it. Why would you want an extra condenser element in there. It's just a kick drum; there's hardly any energy beyond 10 Khz anyway. You might catch a lot of rattle from the snare, though. I'm not sure that's what you want. If you really want extended frequency response, you might as well use an inexpensive LD condenser like the Studio Projects B1 which has excellent bass response as well.
 
The dynamic close to the beater works good but it seems to me that you still have to get a bit away from the drum to catch the lows. I've got an SM57 inside mine - then a LD about 2-3 feet out under a wind tunnel. Works pretty good.
 
Audio-Technica AE2500 Dual-Element Mic
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BY BARRY RUDOLPH

Jun 1, 2003 12:00 PM

A totally new, innovative mic design, the Audio-Technica AE2500 uses specifically designed dynamic and condenser cardioid transducers mounted side-by-side in perfect phase alignment in a single microphone body. This dual-element approach offers audio engineers a kind of “remote control” at the mixer position. Whether you mix the mic's two elements together or record them on separate tracks, the $699/list AE2500 offers many creative processing options when miking LF sources such as kicks, floor toms and bass cabinets.

The sturdy, all-metal windscreen cover of this 13-ounce mic unscrews to reveal two all-new A-T capsules mounted on a rigid, polished, nickel-plated metal support structure to withstand excessive shock and vibration. The dynamic element's neodymium magnet structure is specifically designed and tuned to capture the beater's attack. The companion condenser element has a self-polarized (electret), 11mm-diameter capsule with a 2-micron-thick diaphragm and is housed in a special structure to help reduce high-SPL distortion at subsonic frequencies.

The build quality is excellent: I'm sure that the AE2500 would stand up to the “drop-kick” test that any mic should pass before being placed near a drummer. The AE2500 comes with an AT8471 isolation clamp mount and a 5-pin XLR connector with mating plug, and a 16.5-foot cord that fans out to two standard XLR-3 plugs. Thoughtfully, the ends are marked “dynamic” and “condenser” so you know which requires phantom power. Onboard electronics for the condenser element include a switchable -10dB pad and a -12dB/octave, 80Hz highpass filter.
IN THE STUDIO

My first look at the mic was for a drum-sample session in which we sampled two different bass drums. Besides the AE2500, I used an AKG D 112 and a Shure Beta 52 as a reference, not as an A/B test. The kick drums were an 18-inch 1971 Slingerland floor tom (with a Danmar Percussion Tom Kick Riser conversion) and a clear Remo Emperor head. I also recorded a 1967 22-inch Ludwig kick with a Remo Powerstroke 3 head. Both drums had new single Remo heads with Remo Flam Slam patches. We also used a Danmar felt beater. On all tests, the mic was centered exactly on the shell's diameter, pointed at the beater, with half of the mic's body inside the drum and half outside.

My recording setup was a PreSonus M80 8-channel preamp and a Pro Tools|HD system set to 24-bit/192 kHz. No processing was used. Drummer Jimmy Hunter played snare and hi-hat for some of the recordings to assess differences in the amount of leakage.

Comparing the AE2500 to two really good dynamic kick mics (AKG D 112 and Shure Beta 52), I noticed that its dynamic element had more output than both and less snare/hat leakage. The AE2500's dynamic captured the attack of the beater in a balanced way compared to the Shure's accentuated top end. The D 112 was smooth-sounding in the highs, but I had to add top-end EQ later in the mix. I found the AE2500 dynamic had better upper-bass response than the Beta 52. While the D 112 sounded good on both kicks, I couldn't get the presence I got with the AE2500 dynamic.

The Beta 52 offers more subsonic level than either the D 112 or the AE2500 dynamic; adding in the AE2500 condenser element quickly changed that! The condenser produces a deeper and rounder sound quality than the dynamic, and I found using the -10dB pad produced a consistently hotter digital recording level than without it. Compressing just the dynamic half and mixing in the condenser unprocessed, I sure found a cool new bass drum sound.

I loaned the AE2500 to engineer Erik Zobler, who was tracking artist Will Downing. Zobler put the AE2500 on snare, where he also had a Beta 56 EQ'd with a Pultec with about +8 dB at 10kHz shelf. Using the AE2500 and mixing the two outputs equally together (the condenser with -10dB pad in), he got a good-sounding “crack” from the snare without EQ.

Next up, at prerecord sessions at Capitol Records in Hollywood for the 2003 Academy Awards, engineers Tom and Dan Vacari used the AE2500 along with the Shure Beta 52 on drummer Harvey Mason's kick drum. They got every sound needed for all the different music styles required for that show.
A NEW TREND

The AE2500 leads what I hope is a new trend in mic design, where now — beyond the exact mic choice and placement — a new level of microphone control is possible. I liked the option of mixing and processing the mic's two elements with perfect phase integrity for a cohesive bass or snare drum track that you just can't get using two separate mics.

Thanks go to Dan and Tom Vacari, Erik Zobler, Jimmy Hunter, Cazador, LAFX and Capitol Studios.
 
i know my favorite live venue in my town uses a kick mic just like this one. a dual element condenser/dynamic and their kick always sounds huge even when terrible 15 year old punk bands who cant tune a drumset play. i asked the soundtech about it and he opened it up for me but i forgot what make or model it was.

edit:

i looked at the AT website and i think the mic he was using was the at250de which actually doesnt have a second condenser, the second capsule is a hypercardiod in the 250. the sound guy was probably mistaken.
 
The AT2500 is a pretty cool mic. The combination of the two elements works pretty well. Personally however I still prefer a Sennheiser 901 or a Shure beta 91 in conjunction with some other standard dynamic mic over the AT. The AT offers convenience (unless you lose the cable that comes with it), but just does not sound quite as good to me. Neither the dynamic or the condensor element sounds as good to me as the others.

As far as kick drums not having "any energy above 10k"... Thats a pretty poor excuse. Kick drums have plenty of energy in the upper frequency range and with lots of rock music benefit highly from a good clean attack in this range. Another thing I like is that these "kick drum designed" condensors do a much better job capturing an aggressive mid rnage than the typical dynamic does.
 
Good stuff

We've been the AE2500 on bass drum for a while, and we give it high marks! (We also got a killer price, so that makes it even sweeter :cool: ).

There's a new version, the AE250DE, which is the one you might be thinking about:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ATM250DE/

With the AE2500, we don't always use both elements, but when we do, the combined elements give you a great sound with many options during mix down.

We've used it on bass drums with and without resonant head ports (sound holes), often with little or no EQ. We've used it on an 18" bass drum and made it sound HUGE!

We often record with just a three mic set up and the AE2500 mixes very well with the overheads.

Also good for capturing the low end on Djembes, Congas, Floor toms, etc.

Also GREAT for bass cabs (especially miking the 15" speaker closest to the floor).

The ONLY disadvantage with the AE2500 is this: sometimes the best spot for the Condenser is not the best spot for the Dynamic, and you can't seperate them. You can however, combine either and/or both with another mic.
(Three mics on the bass drum - now that's overkill).
 
It looks like the only difference in those two AT mics is that the 250DE doesn't split the two elements so your stuck with the mixed sound. hmmm......
 
Really cool concept, but I'd imagine a small diaphragm dynamic wouldn't have too much use on a kick.

I like the usual D112 but have to suck out so much of the mids and still boost the highs and lows. I'd love to hear a padded high SPL small diaphragm condenser in the kick for attack and either a Subkick or large diaphragm condenser out front for boom and resonance.

I haven't liked a large diaphragm condenser by itself for a punchy kick sound. Truthfully, I'd love to drop $500 on a bunch of cheapie SP B1's and run them around the kit after hearing the detail of a large diaphragm on the drums. Except for bleed.
 
This whole condensor thing on a kick is no new thing. SD condensors have been used on kick drums for years now on live stages with great success. AT is just the first company that I am aware of to package it in such a way that both mics came as one.
 
looks coolio to me.

maybe an option (second kick mic?) for the future.

isnt a LDC supposed to be a few feet back from the kick drum? or is there like a built in pad or something?
 
Sloan said:
It looks like the only difference in those two AT mics is that the 250DE doesn't split the two elements so your stuck with the mixed sound. hmmm......

It does, it has the same 'harness' that the 2500 has, that splits the condenser and dynamic out into two XLR's.
 
It does, it has the same 'harness' that the 2500 has, that splits the condenser and dynamic out into two XLR's.

I'm in the market for fresh kick drum mic myself...

That comment made me change my mind back to the ae2500, so I looked into it. Yes the ATM250DE does split the mics, even the ground connections are discreet. so... looks like I may save $200.

Looks like a very kickass mic! I normally use a Beta 91 inside on a pad/pillow. and a sub kick outside. I tried my drummers d112 for s#its and giggles, since I had sworn them of 5 years ago when even the crusty old d12e sounded less cardboard. but then I tried all three and compared them by doing mixes with full eq and compression settings. Yeah the beta 91 had that trademark airy ZAP!, but there was just so much snare bleed compared to the d112. that crappy boxy snare crap that was coming through seemed like an unacceptable trade-off...

the d112 has the advantage of a hyper-cardioid pattern. but you have to suck out the mids and boost the high end so much to get a usable recorded track.

man, and I had access to my boss' d112 for like 5 years and only tried it once, and said yuck! I guess I was green...

ps a sennheiser 421 is too close to omni as well... nice warmth, but too much bleed.

so once again... my neverending quest for the ultimate kickdrum setup begins again.

gah! I thought I had this figured out 2 years ago! :eek:
 
Yeah, I read the title of "New" kick mic, and then looked at the thread and said to myself "self.... that's not new" D=<
 
I'm sorry. I think I actually meant to place this in a thread called something like AE2500 vs ATM250de. Plus, I don't care about the 'vintage' of a web thread... the mic would be new to me, since I don't own one yet. I didn't realize that these threads had to be current conversations... I thought that my input may be useful since I have been recording bands for over a decade... why am I even on 'home recording' anyway.?I work out of pro studios... sheesh, I guess I'll go back to gearslutz... hahah.

sorry for the sour tude!

I didn't mean to get off on the wrong foot. the ATM250de is newer and cheaper than the AE2500 which is like a $500 mic. I've tried everything you have ever heard of as far as tracking a kick drum... I've been in a rut where every album I work on has that same sound. I thought maybe I would try something new for once. The ATM250de looks like a cool cheaper solution that I think quite a bit of people with smaller studios could benefit from if it was 70% as good as the AE2500.
 
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