Never too loud...

Z

Zed10R

New member
How do you get those mixes that just seem to sound better and better the louder it gets? You how some recordings sound great at or below a certain volume, but above that it's just glaring? And others just seem totally unobtrusive and can never be TOO loud....you know what I mean....how do you do that? Is it something that just takes listening and practice? Or are there any certainties that one can count on if one were to to persue that sort of mix?

Thanks :cool:
 
I'd say something like "A good mastering engineer combined with good mixes and a client who wants to KEEP them that way" but that's only partially right -

It really is in the mix (more accurately, it's in the core sounds that make up the mix). A good mix should be able to be cranked up until God complains that it's too loud. But after that, the mastering guy has to bring the mix to the level that it wants to sit at - The dance of power, punch and volume without going too far. That's where a lot of recordings go south - Too many people want too much volume. Once those dynamics aren't dynamic anymore, cranking it up just hurts too much.
 
Massive Master said:
I'd say something like "A good mastering engineer combined with good mixes and a client who wants to KEEP them that way" but that's only partially right -

It really is in the mix (more accurately, it's in the core sounds that make up the mix). A good mix should be able to be cranked up until God complains that it's too loud. But after that, the mastering guy has to bring the mix to the level that it wants to sit at - The dance of power, punch and volume without going too far. That's where a lot of recordings go south - Too many people want too much volume. Once those dynamics aren't dynamic anymore, cranking it up just hurts too much.
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Yesss Master.... :p

Thanks...yeah, that just makes sense. Focus on the basics. Specifically I am trying to fit a snare into a dense mix and make it punch.....but so far it's either a weak "pinggg" or a grating "POP". I can't make that nice "whack" stand out...ya know..... :( One of these days I just gonna hafta post some samples. That would make things easier.....
 
If the mix is well-balanced and solid in the midrange, it will tend to hold it's own at higher volumes. If the midrange is weak or understated, or if it has wild peaks in certain areas, then it will get even weaker as you crank it, and then everything just starts falling apart from there. Focus on the midrange (guitar, voice, piano, etc.), and keep things balanced there. Try to resist inflating the extreme highs and lows. In other words, keep the cymbals (and vocal sibilance) in check, and don't get carried away with the thumpage in the bass.

Also be wary of the fletcher-munson curve, and be careful not to have too much energy in the 1-6khz area, as that is where our ears are the most sensitive (if you're doing metal, then this is where the presence controls and sonic maximizer thingies really start wreaking havoc on the ears). This is where cheap cymbals and cheap condensers can really do their damage. Especially if/when one meets the other.

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This is exactly why I like all of my old metal albums more than my new ones. Because I can crank them up and they just get better and better. A lot of the new stuff I've got just gets irritating at higher volumes. So I know exactly what you mean.

The best sounding mixes that I have done happened when I didn't try to get it as loud as I could, and I was just conservative with everything. Kept the guitar tone kinda soft in the high end, kept the O'heads in check, and didn't overdo the kick, stuff like that. Just like Chessrock was saying. It didn't have the same punch or sparkle at low volumes, but cranked up it sounded great. That's the way I listen anyway so that's important to me. I also monitor at pretty loud volumes sometimes because I like to hear what the really cranked guitar tone sounds like. I also get much better results when I don't need to EQ everything too much. If I can get a smooth and fat guitar tone with no or almost no EQ it just sounds so much sweeter to my ears at loud volumes. I sort of find that to be true with most everything in the mix.

Sometimes I've listened to a song right after tracking and just totally dug it. Cranked it up and it sounded killer. Then I've gotten excited about it and flew in there and tweaked everything to get it big and punchy, get the guitars nice and agressive, get the overheads really sweet, etc, etc. Then I go back and really listen to it again and I don't have the same feeling that I started with.....like, shit I just ruined it. Honestly I think that sweet sound comes from good tracking and minimal processing. And also knowing when to say when with all of the loudness. I know everybody says that all the time around here, but I'll say it too because I've learned that myself.

Zed, I think you're into metal if I'm remembering other posts from you....I'm not sure.

Anyway, I've got two prime example albums that I play for people to illustrate this point. "Ashes of the Wake" by Lamb of God, and "Blessed Are the Sick" by Morbid Angel. "Ashes of the Wake" will rip your head off at low volumes, and everything in the mix is just razor sharp and powerful. Everybody seems to love that production as well. "Blessed" sounds almost muffled in comparison at low volumes. The guitar tone seems a little soft, the kick is not real big or super punchy. But when you crank up "Ashes" it almost sounds distorted. In fact it will distort pretty easily on alot of stereo systems. There is just too much of everything. "Blessed" just comes into it's own when you get it cranked up. There are no offending frequencies anywhere (maybe the vocals are a little too loud), there is no grating high end in the guitars, the kick is not distorting anything or interupting the clarity of the rest of the mix. It's absolute bliss for a metalhead like me! Anyway, sometimes I need to listen to an album like that at the full range of volumes to get a good feel for how that sort of mix works and how it sounds on my monitors. If I could just convince everybody I work with that that mix sounds better.....I'd be happy, lol.

Perhaps this is a useless comparison, as I'm not sure how many people around here listen to old school Morbid Angel...haha.
 
metalhead28 said:
Zed, I think you're into metal if I'm remembering other posts from you....I'm not sure.

Perhaps this is a useless comparison, as I'm not sure how many people around here listen to old school Morbid Angel...haha.
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Yeah, I think you do know exactly what I mean, and I am very much into metal. Old school Morbid Angel does sound very good. These days I am more into Soilwork, Strapping Young Lad, and anything Devin Townsend does. But, my roots are in Slayer, Morbid Angel, Carcass, Death, and early Sepultura. :cool:

THanks for the pointers..... :D
 
gcapel said:
carcass heartwork is an awesome sounding album. awesome guitarist.
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:cool: oh HELL yeah. That cd is one of the top 10 of all time. Mike Amott and Bill Steer perform magic on that cd.
 
metalhead28 said:
Perhaps this is a useless comparison, as I'm not sure how many people around here listen to old school Morbid Angel...haha.
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I do.

Does it mean that your mix is crappy if it hurts to listen to at high volume? I've noticed great sounding, low volume tracks that would cause injury at loud levels. I always thought that, this was a master EQ problem and the ME blew. I guess it's a good thing that I just set things up and hit record, then get someone else to mix the stuff together.
 
SuicideNote said:
I do.

Does it mean that your mix is crappy if it hurts to listen to at high volume? I've noticed great sounding, low volume tracks that would cause injury at loud levels. I always thought that, this was a master EQ problem and the ME blew. I guess it's a good thing that I just set things up and hit record, then get someone else to mix the stuff together.
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Well...maybe but maybe not. Like Massive Master said, if all the source sounds are good, the mix should be good unless someone screws it up.

It's all about balance.....that's my current objective....
 
Zed,

> How do you get those mixes that just seem to sound better and better the louder it gets? <

This is a great question, and more people should think about that when mixing. That's a standard test for me when mixing - if I turn it up really loud does it still sound okay? I've noticed the past few years especially that good mixes tend to have this attribute. Then again, the first mix I ever heard like that was the debut album by the band Yes all those years ago. They even wrote right on the LP jacket that you have to turn it way up to get the full effect.

One factor is the bass level. I don't mean the bass instrument, but the amount of content at very low frequencies. Say, 100 Hz and below. You simply have to make the bass and kick a bit on the thin side to be able to turn the track's volume way up without sounding tubby or distorting. Then when it's really loud the fullness kicks in. You also have to decide if the bass or the kick will provide most of the oomph for the track's bottom end. There's no hard and fast rule, but often in a good mix the kick is clicky while the bass is full, or the bass is on the thin side and the kick is full with more thump and less click.

Another factor is the harshness range around 2 to 4 KHz. A good mix will be very controlled in this range, again letting you turn up the volume without sounding too piercing. I listen to a lot of movie and concert DVDs, and the ones that sound best to me are never harsh in that range.

Now I'll sit back and let Fletcher tear me to shreds. :D :D :D

--Ethan
 
Ethan...that's awesome!!! :D Thanks!! Pointers...descriptive words...specific frequency ranges....and above all the opinion of other people who know what I am talking about...is exactly what I need.

:cool:
 
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