Need some help

G

GoldFalcon

New member
I'm in the middle of trying to put together a decent quality demo using primarily cheap equipment. I've found I can't overdub vocals to my satisfaction (my vocals draw too much on actually playing the tune while singing it, and vice versa. If I don't do it simultaneously then both the guitar track and the vox track sound stiff and wooden) so I'm using my better mic (an MXL V63M) for the vocals and using either my SM57 or a PVi to mic the guitar (depending on the song).

I'm not real happy with the results, but I'm not asking for much in terms of production quality so I think what I want is achievable.

Here's what I'm getting: Rough take of new tune (excuse some of the popping that showed up in the mp3, and the lack of pitch control in the vox --it was late)

Here's what I was getting before the new equipment Sometimes Savior -old tune recorded with the PVi and an Audigy 2 Platinum *Link Fixed*

Here's the "sound" I'd be happy with:
Lori Mckenna -How To Be Righteous
Richard Buckner - Straight
Bruce Springsteen - Highway 29

My vocals always seem to be too "out front" and uneven. The guitar tone seems to be too "distant". Is this all a matter of what mic's I'm using and their placement? Am I expecting too much of the equipment that I have? Should I just track the stuff and let someone else mix and master it? (I don't enjoy recording at all --spending an hour trying to make a three minute song sound good drives me crazy)

Should I just bite the bullet, stop annoying people and RTFM? :D

Any suggestions/advice/cruel derision appreciated.
 
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I can't listen right now because I'm just finishing up mixing something, but I will listen in a few minutes.

I will comment on 2 things you said, though:

a decent quality demo using primarily cheap equipment
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If cheap just means you got good stuff at an inexpensive price, then there's hope. If cheap means "not good", then you might be expecting too much. You know the old addage "Garbage in, garbage out".

My vocals always seem to be too "out front" and uneven.
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One of the most useful things you can have in your arsenal is a compressor.
 
Maybe a 3-6db cut in the vocal level proportional to the guitar. Also, I would consider adding a touch of reverb, very little though, because I think the dry 'sound' is more in line with what you're going for, but maybe a 20/80 wet dry ratio.

Also, once you have your live tracks, you can go back and consider retracking the guitar playing along with yourself... you might get a better sound that way, and at least get a pass with the better mic, but the acoustic sound isn't terrible, take out a little of the low mids, and you'll have a very passable sound.

nice song btw.

cheers.
 
Thanks for listening and/or commenting.

If cheap just means you got good stuff at an inexpensive price, then there's hope. If cheap means "not good", then you might be expecting too much. You know the old addage "Garbage in, garbage out".
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Well, I'm using the MXL and Shure mic's (SM57 and 58) primarily which aren't pro studio quality (or at least aren't generally used in a studio for what I'm doing), but I figure they are good enough to get the sound quality I am going for, which is intentionally low-fi, stripped and minimal. The only mic that is truly garbage is the Peavey PVi, but if I use it to capture the ambient acoustic sound (about 3' away from the 12th fret) then it works on some songs. I'm happy with what I am getting from the mics (at least as far as I can determine). I think where I am lacking is in levels and mic placement, as well as judicious plug-in usage.

I'm also using the Mbox with Pro Tools LE Factory Bundle, bouncing the tracks out to disk and cleaning 'em up in Audacity.

One of the most useful things you can have in your arsenal is a compressor.
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I'm using Joe Meeks compressor (when I use it at all) but I'm not really happy with it, because it compresses the guitar track too (since I don't dub the vocals on a separate track).


Maybe a 3-6db cut in the vocal level proportional to the guitar. Also, I would consider adding a touch of reverb, very little though, because I think the dry 'sound' is more in line with what you're going for, but maybe a 20/80 wet dry ratio.
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I'll give that a shot, though I'm not a real big fan of the Pro Tools D-Verb plug in so far. My Cubasis and Krystal reverb plugins sounded more natural to me and less processed (I'm big on less processed).

nice song btw.
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Thanks, I wrote it a few weeks ago before the Katrina saturation level was so high. I'm hoping that in a few years it can still be a good song without having to carry all of the baggage that any song about Katrina immediately picks up now. But when there's a concert a week about something I can't blame people for getting a little sick of it.
 
I hope you didn't think I was reffering to you, your music or your equipment when I said "Garbage in, garbage out"...It's just an expression. :)
As far as your mic's are concerned, there is nothing wrong with sm57's or 58's and they are used in studios all the time. The Joe Meek compressor is also very good, but I can seee why you have problems with it if you're tracking guitar and vocals at the same time. I'm almost done what I was doing and will listen to your music in a few minutes. :)
 
Nice tune. I think jazzrich hit it pretty good with cutting the vocs a bit. Maybe try some eq, reverb, delay, etc....just a little. I think if you eq the voice a bit, before adding any other effects, it might surprise you. Could make it sit much better. Sounds like you captured the guitar pretty well, but as stated, could use some eq work. Good start, so I think you can make this work well.
Ed
 
I hope you didn't think I was reffering to you, your music or your equipment when I said "Garbage in, garbage out"...It's just an expression.
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Nah! No offense, I was just lettin ya know what I had. I didn't spend a bundle on this stuff and I know it. I also know that you guys will be a lot more familiar with the limitations of my gear than I will. I've been performing exclusively live for 20 years and could write what I know about recording on a matchbook cover...in crayon...and large letters. I just figured I'd give ya some examples of where I wanted to go, and what I was using to try and get there.

And even if you were talking about me, my stuff, or my music it wouldna bugged me. Thin skinned I ain't. When I ask for criticism I actually mean it :D

*Edit -Addition*
Nice tune. I think jazzrich hit it pretty good with cutting the vocs a bit. Maybe try some eq, reverb, delay, etc....
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Thanks for listening, I guess I'll slap on the dreaded "producer" hat and go twiddle with some knobs. I'll post an update if I get something that I am happy with.

Thanks for all of the input and suggestions.
 
OK, so the given is that you want the voice/guitar tracked together live to keep a particular feel to the music. The problem you’re experiencing, IMO, is caused by the mic on the guitar. IME the 57 is not detailed enough for the way you play and that’s what’s making it sound “distant”. Might be different if you were bashing away on the gtr, but for your style you need another mic. Get an MXL 603s and you’re set. Spend the $100… no way around it. Just put it somewhere near the neck/body joint and press record.

I listened to Any Wind. It has an odd distortion in the guitar part - like the mic was vibrating against something… but I’ve heard your other songs so I’m familiar with the gtr sound you’re getting, for instance, Something Like a Star using the 57 on gtr. (The Sometimes Savior link didn’t work for me – just got the “page cannot be found” message)

I listened to the three examples of what you’re shooting for. Your vocal sound is already there, IMO. As far the vocal being uneven, a good compressor as Rami said is a handy tool. But for the raw style you’re doing, you can probably get the leveling you really need through mic technique and placement. And when you get that rich full-bodied guitar sound tracked the vocal’s going to balance better anyway.

Tim
 
Get an MXL 603s and you’re set. Spend the $100… no way around it. Just put it somewhere near the neck/body joint and press record.
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Thanks Tim, I reckon you're right. I tried using my current MXL on the guitar and using the SM57 (and 58 incidentally) for the vocals as you had suggested in another thread of mine and the guitar sound was very near what I am looking for, but the 57 just took too much away from the vocals and the 58 took even more.

Nothing left for it I guess but to break down and open up the wallet ;)
 
Finally listened. Well you got all the technical advice from Tim...I have nothing to add in that respect. I'm not such a technical person. So, I will comment on the emotional side. I LOVE this tune...I love songs that sound like they are real and come from the heart. That overrides any technical short-coming. I listen to lyrics and emotions and this song almost made me cry and really touched me. It's really really a beautiful song. That's all I can tell you. I don't care about your equipment at this point. You're miles ahead of someone with a 50,000 dollar studio and no soul. Very nice.
 
Well damn, there's absolutely nothing I can post now. Thanks for the kind words, and I'm glad the song meant something to you. That's why I write 'em.
 
If it's any conselation, there are a lot of us guitar/vocalist who don't feel quite right about tracking vocals and guitar seperately. You might try tracking both at the same time, but on different tracks so you can tweek one without affecting the other. I played in bands for years (live gigs) where I had to sing and play at the same time, now when I sit down in the studio and do one without the other it feels strange, surely you and I are not the only ones who find it more "natural" to sing and play at the same time.
 
Yeah Dani, I'm trying to overcome it, but it really throws me off of my game. My vocal control goes to hell and I emphasize the wrong parts. I always feel like I'm playing "catch up" with the guitar track. And when I'm playing I always lose a little oomph unless I concentrate 135% on singing the lyrics in my head while I'm playing. God help me if my mind starts to wander.

Anyway, here's the retrack of "Any Wind That Blows" again excuse my sometimes wandering pitch. Tried it multitacked with overdubbed vocals at 1 AM so I am a little flat in places. I like the mix better after incorporating a lot of the suggestions here.

*Edit* - (Though I do think it sounds a bit too "tinny" now, think I may have pulled the lows and mids down a bit too much)
 
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