Need new smaller mixer

  • Thread starter Thread starter fstrat76
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Sorry I recommend the Toft, the reviews I read were good and yes it did fit what you were looking for.

By the way I still have my Tascam M3700, 32 channel full meter, and it has the automation. I actually think it is a very good console, the pres are very quiet and sound fine. I do have a rack of external pres as well. Bought it new many years ago.

I was thinking how about a secondhand Amek, but they maybe outside the budget and too big, although the 24 channel frames may fit the size. I nearly bought an Amak when they came out, but the price was 3 times the M3700 deal, and the Amak was nearly as much as my house was worth at the time. How things change.

Alan.
 
It's too bad you couldn't find a way around the noise problems with the Toft. For what it's worth, the preamps are a LOT better sounding in general than the Tascam's, both of which I have owned.....

Your work flow you described is sort of a hybrid and as you described it you want a summing box that is also a real console with pres and EQ as well as an inline mix for your phones and a playback mastering section.

The pinch point will be the quality of the EQ and the pres with a noise floor you can live with. And your budget.

Your solution exists....just not at your budget. So I feel you have to adjust your thinking about what it is you actually need and why. In MHO, it becomes something more modular rather than an all in one box...in your case...Unless you can pony up for a Harrison or the Tree console or even an SSL. In these cases its all in the box already but you have to have a lot of traffic and be moving product out the door on a regular basis to even consider such an investment.

An older console can be had and there's a lot of choices that will be an improvement on what you already have. The maintenance numbers go up in the budget almost immediately on a choice like that. Maybe not what you want??!!

So breaking down needs is a great way of looking at modular ways to solve your problem. You want/need a high quality playback/monitor controller Y/N? You want/need at least 16 channels of tracking and mixing with high end pres and EQ as well as routing. Y/N? It has to FIT in your room Y/N?

You already have a working system that you know the limitations of. I would personally start with a high-end monitor management solution. You monitor through the master section of your Tascam Y/N? There's going to be a HUGE difference when you take this function out of use. There's so many choices out there now. It's almost like people have discovered how much of a difference this makes to their workflow. I would bet even something as basic as a Mackie Big Knob will sound better to you than the Tascam monitoring section. Look at the Coleman, Grace, Burl level stuff. I'm sure you don't need the highest end as this becomes something for multiple rooms and interfacing with multiple systems.

Hearing is knowledge. Maybe you should spend your money on that part before you go the console direction. Would better treatment be worth your time? Better monitors? Certainly a better monitor controller!

Baby steps.
 
Some say maintenance, while others see custom modifications . Anyway, you're only gonna know what your op-amps feed you
 
From what I've read...the new Trident consoles were getting good reviews, though there probably haven't aren't too many out in the field yet for any long-term, broad perspectives. Keep in mind that they are coming from the same company (PMI) as the Toft...though I think everyone agrees even from the start that the new Trident consoles are of a much higher caliber than the Toft...but also, look at their price too.

AFA the vintage Trident 65...that's the first model that came from that Trident line...sorta the lower-budget version of the big vintage Trident consoles. My London 24 is basically a later version model of what the 65 started. The channel modules are relatively the same, but the group/monitors section on mine is different...it's a 24 channel section and it has a few extra features.

That particular 65 has been up for sale for awhile if I recall....his price is just a little on the high side, considering it has only the 8-channel group/monitor section...so that was probably the earliest/most basic version in that series.
That said...the listing claims it's been fully recapped and re-chipped, improved grounding and better power supplies...which adds up to about $2k worth of improvements.

If I was going to make an offer...I would start at maybe $4k, considering it's been up for sale for awhile, and this appears to be some sort of music store/outlet, and not an individual studio owner...so I'm sure they would like to get it out of there.
Use the fact that the wood framing looks kinda beat up, as leverage for the lower offer...that maybe it wasn't cared for well...etc...etc.

AFA how much better will it be than the Toft...well, I can tell you that my London 24 is dead quiet and sound fantastic....but I did a good portion of the work myself, and the previous owner started the overhaul by doing an absolutely killer job on the grounding and overall power distribution...which goes a long way toward making the board quieter and improving the headroom. Also...mine had the master section modified for improved headroom, along with 4 channels mods, which also adds to the improved sonic quality.
Bottom line...if someone offered me a brand new 32 channel Toft in trade for my London 24...I wouldn't take it.
I can't speak for that 65, not having heard/used it...but it appears that much of it has been overhauled, so there shouldn't be much more it would need to take it to the best-case scenario.

One thing...these vintage Tridents do not have as much routing options as even the TASCAM boards. My 3500 had more options and it took me a little time to adjust to the Trident, but most of that was due to 25 years of using the 3500...I could work it with my eyes closed. Now I've gotten used to the Trident, and it feels as comfortable, and I'm not really missing anything I had with the 3500.
IOW...these are pro consoles capable of providing all the needed functionality...and once overhauled, they can sound quite good.

That 65 is also a smaller footprint that my London 24...which might be right for your space, if you are really considering it.
 
The only way to improve headroom is to increase the amplitude of the audio power supply rail(s), which would typically require at least some component changes. Miro does your Trident actually have higher power rails than stock? That's pretty awesome if it does...massive undertaking...or by "improved headroom" do you mean improved signal-to-noise ratio? I do know your console has those really awesome power supplies, which, between those and improved grounding would certainly decrease noise improving the signal-to-noise spec.
 
Interestingly, reviewing the trident 78 block diagram reveals that the channel monitor mute is also before the opamps and it looks like they are connected always-on to the mix bus, just like the toft atb. I assume the opamps of course are much better quality in the trident 78 and don't add much noise like the toft.

Just surprised at this design on the 78 also.
 
fstrat76 said:
Interestingly, reviewing the trident 78 block diagram reveals that the channel monitor mute is also before the opamps and it looks like they are connected always-on to the mix bus, just like the toft atb. I assume the opamps of course are much better quality in the trident 78 and don't add much noise like the toft.

Just surprised at this design on the 78 also.
Click to expand...

This would be something kind of along the lines of it coming from PMI....
 
sweetbeats said:
The only way to improve headroom is to increase the amplitude of the audio power supply rail(s), which would typically require at least some component changes. Miro does your Trident actually have higher power rails than stock? That's pretty awesome if it does...massive undertaking...or by "improved headroom" do you mean improved signal-to-noise ratio? I do know your console has those really awesome power supplies, which, between those and improved grounding would certainly decrease noise improving the signal-to-noise spec.
Click to expand...

No...the voltage to the power rails was not increased from stock...it's just that the multiple custom power supplies provide much more "power headroom" than the stock supply, which would start to bottom-out after you pushed up a dozen channels or so. The board is never starving for power, no matter how much of it is in use...that's what I meant.

I mentioned this in my lengthy Trident overhaul thread last year, but in a nutshell...
The tech for the previous owner, besides utilizing separate power supplies for the phantom power, the logic/LEDs, and two + 18 and -18 volt supplies for the main power rails...he also completely redid the power distro inside, so rather then making a single power connection on one end of the console, and running it the length downstream, using a single, linear distribution path, he broke it up into 5-6 sections (don't recall), feeding power directly to each section.
Then there's the massive 2" x 1/4" copper bar the length of the console, and that too has multiple ground point, rather than how it was stock, with a single connection at one end of the console feeding everything downstream.
The guys' tech went seriously overboard, and he workmanship was top-notch...very clean and very solid...I got nothing to worry about there. He installed new power cabling connectors..the whole nine yards.

So it's very quiet, and you can push up all 28 channels without even a flinch. I love the fact that I can completely turn off the phantom power supply while still running the console. He even tapped off the logic supply a separate feed just for the VU meter lights, and added a dimmer....so I can completely turn them off too, dim them down.
It minimizes on the power consumption and the heat generation in the room.


cavedog101 said:
This would be something kind of along the lines of it coming from PMI....
Click to expand...

Mmmm...yeah, well...PMI. :)
 
Before this 'mixerfest' gets locked, a thought occurs regarding the Toft's noise?

Douglas Self's Small Signal Audio Design goes into the choice of internal OP levels for mixers. The common standard is -2dBu (615mV) but if a lower level is chosen the mixer can be touted as having higher headroom but the signal to noise specc will suffer. The choice of -2dBu becomes +4dBu at the output (for a symmetrical dual balanced amplifier) and gives a headroom of some +22dBu if conventional op amps running at +&-18V* are used.

+22dBu (~10V rms) is surely enough for most peeps? I have to wonder what the Toft's internal levels are?

*Self also advocates the use of seventeen volt supplies. This gives a loss of headroom of only 0.5dB but reduces op amp failures to virtually zero.

Dave.
 
Well, there is closure! I've found a perfect solution for my needs for now. I started out this thread thinking 3k budget, but of course was way off and finally had to realize this was going to end up a much larger business expense.

I've decided against a larger, older, and *maybe* better console. I don't have the space nor the time nor the desire to repair a large unit.

You're not going to believe this, but I actually got another replacement Toft that is so much better noise-wise over the first one I had. I've always liked the EQ's, the Pre's are decent, and the routing is excellent. While there is some opamp noise in the master section, I am planning to get the Jim Williams upgrades for this board in the near future. The smaller footprint of this mixer is perfect for my studio: its new, and its under warranty, which is an important consideration for my business.

Now with that in mind, during this process, I've enjoyed learning about the modular approach and just purchase what I need. All the pieces I needed to buy to get close to mixer features like cue and auxes, headphone mixers, Pre's, separate EQ's, all added up very quickly.

So, to build on for the future, I added a Neve 5060 Centerpiece. I can use the pre's, eq, and routing of the Toft, and the hybrid mix and summing features of the Neve. I can even set it up as the master section for the Toft if I want to. Later, I can add outboard eq's, pre's, one or two at a time, and even downsize as I go. This really gives me a lot of flexibility right now.


Thanks everyone for the suggestions, links, discussion, etc. - much appreciated and I learned a lot in this process.


~Mike
 
fstrat76 said:
I started out this thread thinking 3k budget, but of course was way off and finally had to realize this was going to end up a much larger business expense.
Click to expand...

Yeah...with the Toft board and the Neve 5060 Centerpiece...that's an understatement! :D

Good luck with both...glad you found a way to work it out.
 
miroslav said:
Yeah...with the Toft board and the Neve 5060 Centerpiece...that's an understatement! :D

Good luck with both...glad you found a way to work it out.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Yes, understatement for sure - but its also a capital investment with all the business advantages. There's really nothing new under 3K on the market that is "studio" related anymore - PreSonus, Behringer, Mackie, Soundcraft - they all market as "live". You could get by with these mixers in a sense, but those would be a step backward functionality-wise even compared with my old Tascam.

I haven't figured out all the permutations of this new setup yet, but am excited to get more serious work done, especially with the Neve. So far so good. I'm finding now I need more cables and patchbays!
 
fstrat76 said:
Thanks! Yes, understatement for sure - but its also a capital investment with all the business advantages.
Click to expand...

I take it then that your doing (or planning to) more outside work, rather than just your own stuff...?
Maybe you already mentioned what you're doing...I just don't don't recall.
 
I own a video marketing business - we're getting very busy - we don't do as much "custom" music as we used to, but in general, I use the equipment for both business and personal purposes. If I could, I would love to move into a nice building, professionally build it out, add equipment like Neotek or API etc but the ROI for that kind of studio these days is a losing proposition, especially for our current market.
 
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