Need help with sound quality

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Enigma

New member
Hi all,

I'm fairly new to home recording (about 2 months), and could use a little help with getting better sound quality out of my recordings.

Here's a link to a sample of my results: http://soundelight.hypermart.net/musicsample.zip - It's a remake of LIT's "Ziplock Bag"

The following is a list of my equipment:
Ibanez RG 270 DX - POD 2.1 (Direct recording, since I have a heck of a time getting even decent sounds from micing my amp) - 2 Shure SM57s - 1 Shure Radio Shack Omnidirectional Mic (I know, I know :)... but it's the same style as an SM58 and I can't notice much of a difference between it and the SM57s) - Crate PA-6 6 Channel Powered Mixer (used only when micing) - Mark II drumset using Zildjian and Paiste cymbals. All of this runs into an AMD K6-2 450 with a Turtle Beach Montego Home Studio sound card with Cakewalk 9.

I realize that my room is not the greatest (about 20x20 with a 7 foot ceiling) and my vocals leave a lot to be desired... I just think it's possible to get a little better sound but need to be steered in the right direction... Any help would GREATLY be appreciated.

Chris
 
ok then , i think you need to try and isolate what it is that doesnt apeal to u about your recordings. Is it to lifely , or to dead ....etcetc.. Im just downloading your sample so we'll see if its quite noticeable what your setup needs.. Do u use any compression?? or does your mix even need it if you do?? This looks quite big , this file i mean , so ill come back to this after i hear it ....

spider
 
well i just had a listen to it , its kind of hard to compare to what you have burnt on a disc , i dont know how much quality was lost posting it on the net .. i spose it wouldnt be too much loss , if any actually..
I think you should do something with that snare , im a drummer myself and i think it sounds like mud.. unless thats what you desire for the song ... this is only a personal opinion by the way .... I would try tightening it up a little and just add a fraction of reverb if your chasing that airy type of sound.. The vocals, well im not to crash hot recording vocals either so i cant really speak.. Do u use any compression ?? maybe get one of the guys here to listen to it and suggest some compression settings ..im not real good with compression , im learning myself .. Whats your setup like ...??? r u using high quality equipment ??
 
Sorry about the size of the MP3. I wanted to keep it small, but I also wanted to give everyone a good idea of what it sounded like.

In that recording, I didn't use any compression. I left it "raw" so you all could see what I had to work with. But I've played with compression a bit on it and wasn't happy with the results. I'm sure it's the way I setup my compressor though (which I don't have anymore... looking at a better model). Any ideas on a good compressor that's not too expensive? The wife's already freaking out because of the amount of money I spend on this hobby. :eek:

What would you suggest I do with the snare, other than spening big $$$ on a top of the line model? Better tuning? Better head (it has a Remo, though I cannot for the life of me remember which model)? Better micing technique?

And I wouldn't say my equipment is necessarily "high" quality, but for the most part, I wouldn't say its all low quality, either. I know I'm not going to get pro-sounding results with my gear/studio (especially the $300 drum setup), but I believe with a little guidance, I could get better sounding results. I'm just too new to this hobby and need a little direction. :)

Chris
 
I am also curious to hear some samples from people who get decent recordings out of sub-pro equipment, preferably similar to mine...

Chris
 
Hi Enigma,

I just listened to your little extract and here are a few points I've noticed:

*Your recording seems to be a bit "loud" in the mid-range: you should be able to see that just by looking at the spectrum analyser in WinAmp (you do use WinAmp, I hope for MP3 files...). When you mix, try to equalize the instruments to cover the whole frequency band.
Example: Add bass to the bass guitar and kick drum, treble to singing (don't overdo it!) and hihat...
Be careful, however, when equalizing as you could turn your song into some rap thing...

*I listened to the song through headphones (hey it's 2:30 in the morning here in France) and I still didn't manage to hear a stereo effect.
Try this
Drum kit:snare + kick drum in the middle
hihat: offside(left or right what ever you fancy...)
toms:smallest one all the way to the left, biggest one all the way to the right, and all the other ones somewhere in between (from left to right)
bass guitar and singing: in the middle
elecric guitar: opposite side to the hihat.

Final point: Try adding some effects (which can be plugins, as they can sound as good if not better than real effects! - tell me if you'd like names of great sites where you can get these plugins).

And hey, if you have any luck, why not post some other samples up here.

SM
 
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*I listened to the song through headphones (hey it's 2:30 in the morning here in France) and I still didn't manage to hear a stereo effect.
Try this
Drum kit:snare + kick drum in the middle
hihat: offside(left or right what ever you fancy...)
toms:smallest one all the way to the left, biggest one all the way to the right, and all the other ones somewhere in between (from left to right)
bass guitar and singing: in the middle
elecric guitar: opposite side to the hihat.

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Well, unfortunately, I'm recording into a soundcard, so if I'm not mistaken, I'm limited to a left and a right... correct? And if I use the Behringer MX602A's panning controls (which I think I forgot to mention I had... sorry!) to record the drums, going into the soundcard, am I not still limited to only a left and a right? Oh, I'm so confused! :confused:

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Final point: Try adding some effects (which can be plugins, as they can sound as good if not better than real effects! - tell me if you'd like names of great sites where you can get these plugins).

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I certainly could use those sites. But like I said, the sample I provided was "raw", or "dry" (like I'm learning is the correct term around here :) ) because I didn't want to muddy it up any more than it already is. :)

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And hey, if you have any luck, why not post some other samples up here.

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I'll play around a little more... Once I get it sounding a little better, I'll mess with my other samples I have and send them up to be judged. :)

Thanks for the input!

Chris
 
Hi Chris,

Are you doing it all yourself? (drumming and everything)

With the drums, I would just say to make sure that they are tuned well.
Even if they are cheap drums, you can get them to sound good on tape. Hell Buddy Holly's Peggy Sue has this paradiddle "tom lick" that was played on two cardboard boxes, but nobody knew it for years, and engineers were trying to figure out how they got such a clean tom sound on tape! hahahaha

With The Snare, I say tune it fairly tight so that it cuts through, and then tighten the snares, bt don't overtighten them.
I just downloaded your sample, and after I listen to it some, I'll be able to make ome better suggestions.

Tim
 
Enigma,

I used to have a similar setup: an SM57, an EV 257B (basically an SM57 with a wider frequency range), a $300 Mars Music drumset, a Crate amp, Zoom 505, and a Behringer 602A. Not even a POD for guitars! Oh, and I tracked everything into Cakewalk through a Monster MX300 soundcard (a Sound Blaster compatible, $100 sound card).

Regardless, I managed to get some good sounds out of that setup. Check out HipJazz, Say a Prayer, The Beavis, and What Style? at http://mp3.com/37point5/ All done with that setup. Of course, it took hours upon hours of tweaking effects, but I was happy with it considering the amount of money I'd spent.

Now, however, I've bought a few ART Tube MP preamps, a Rode NT1 large diaphragm mic, an Oktava MC012 small diaphragm, and a Delta 66 24 bit sound card. Still no POD, though, and still using the crappy drumset (although I have good heads on it and finally figured out how to tune it). You can hear the results of this new setup on Tracey and Wavelength.

Listening to your song, my advice is to read a bunch (this site is a great resource; recording books with audio examples on CD are good, too) and experiment a lot with EQ, compression, reverb, and stereo placement of instruments in the mix.

For example, your bass drum needs some serious compression and eq to make it stand out in the mix. When I only had two mics (and only two inputs into the sound card (left and right)), I used to track the snare and bass, and then go back and overdub the overheads. That way, I had them all on separate tracks and could eq and compress each differently. Doesn't sound as good as micing a set for real, but if you're in a crappy room, the snare and bass will just sound lame in the overheads anyway. Also, you should try recording two or more tracks of rhythm guitar with different tones and panning them to opposite ends of the stereo spectrum. Um.... Oh yeah, where is the bass guitar? If you don't have one, at least use the sounds in your soundcard and program a midi bassline in Cakewalk, 'cause it sounds really powerless without some strong bass (also a result of not hearing the kick). Or play the bassline on the guitar and then pitch-shift it down with the Cakewalk plug-in.

Other than that, not too bad. The vocals could work with a few overdubs (or an Antares Autotune) and some doubling (and compression, eq, and reverb). But with some practice and experimentation, you'll be putting out some good sounding stuff in no time.

Good luck,
Ryan

P.S. Watch your levels going into the mixer; your snare is distorted!


[This message has been edited by 37point5 (edited 07-06-2000).]
 
Tim: I'm doing all the guitars and singing (at least attempting to :) ) myself. My cousin is playing the drums (on my set).

And that's pretty funny about Buddy Holly's two cardboard boxes... I'm starting to think I should sell my set and buy a couple boxes... I'd probably get better sounds out of them. :D

37point5: Hmmmm... I've been seeing the Rode NT1 mentioned a lot... I think I'm going to have to check one of those out...

Good ears, btw... you caught me. No bass guitar. :) I don't own one yet, but real soon.

And now I'm jealous. Are you sure you got those sounds out of a Zoom 505? :) I had one of those at one time. I was a little unimpressed with the distortions I got out of it, even after tweaking them for hours. I even downloaded presets that people had come up with for different sounds and was still not impressed. I do however think that it's a great pedal for under $100, though.

What do you use for compression and reverb?

And I'll try to tweak the snare mic a little more. I had it as high as I could get it without clipping, but my cousin tends to hit the snare pretty hard sometimes, which makes it clip sometimes.

Thanks for the advice. I'll play around with it some more this weekend and see if I can't get better results. And I'll try to get my cousin over to re-record the drums on separate tracks, and hopefully I can get those sounding decent since I don't have a limiter/gate (one of my next purchases! Any suggestions on a good brand/model? Something not TOO expensive... I'm certainly not rich. :) )

Thanks again,

Chris
 
Enigma,

Yeah, the Rode is really nice for vocals, room miking for amps, and even for overheads. And it's pretty cheap ($200). The Oktava is also an excellent deal (around $130 from Guitar Center, although Recording Engineer will freak out if you tell him you didn't buy it from the Sound Room). I've had great results with it micing amps, acoustic guitars, and as an overhead.

You can get a reasonable sounding bass for around $100 at Mars Music or Guitar Center. And some people around here have had great results running basses through the POD. Although, that pitch shifting trick works decently well in a jam.

Yep, all those sounds are from the Zoom 505. I spent a lot of time tweaking! The secret I have for lead sounds is to run a distorted lead patch into the distortion channel of my amp, but I turn the pre-gain down really low on the amp, so the amp is just starting to distort. This smooths out the abrasiveness of the Zoom distortions. I do get some really great rhythm and cleaner lead sounds straight from the Zoom, though, but for the really distorted lead sounds, it just didn't cut it on it's own.

For compression I use the Waves NPP2 RCL compressor (it's a plug-in). It's pretty amazing if you can afford it. If not, I'd go for one of the less expensive dbx hardware units, or Behringer's compressor. For reverb I use the DSP-FX StudioVerb (also a plug-in). To be honest, though, you can find some pretty good freeware/shareware plug-ins on the net; compressors, reverbs, gates, eqs, etc. They're not spectacular, but a lot better than the ones that come with Cakewalk.

As far as a limiter/gate, you really shouldn't need them for tracking; just don't set your levels so high and you'll be fine. I rarely use a gate when mixing; if necessary I'll just hand edit any really bad bleed, but if you place your mics right, you really shouldn't need a gate for a 2 mic drum setup. Some bleed is good; it 'glues' the kit together. You can limit with a compressor, so if you get one of those, you automatically have a limiter. Again, I rarely compress while tracking (especially now that I record in 24bits). During mixing I do use a lot of compression; the snare, bass drum, bass guitar, and vocals usually need it the most.

Ryan
 
Musician's Friend has Rogue basses for $100 also. Although most people I've heard talk about the Rogues hate them and think they're cheaply made, I've owned a Rogue electric guitar, and once I put a DiMarzio FRED in the bridge, it sounded and played pretty good. And even though I traded it even-up for my Ibanez (don't ask me why the guy wanted too... I tend not to ask questions when a deal like that comes along :) ), I still kinda miss it on occasion...

The main reason I got rid of my Zoom 505 was because even after all the tweaking I did with it, all I could get was either a variation of a clean signal, or a variation of distortion that no matter which mode I had it set on (Metal, Overdrive, etc...), it always sounded like I had a fuzz box plugged in there somewhere. I could never get a decent-sounding distortion out of it. Now my POD on the other hand... :)

I checked out the price on the Waves NPP and NPP2 packages. Ouch. :) $500 per is a lot to part with at one shot right now. What would you think of the EasyWaves Bundle at $100 (downloaded, $150 on media)? It includes a 3-band EQ, Reverb and Compressor. Does anyone have any experience with that particular product?

And I agree with you about the ones that come with Cakewalk. While I'm no expert at this stuff, I know that Cakewalks effects aren't that good. I've never cared for pretty much any of them.

Chris
 
First of all Enigma, I'd like to tell you that you're brave as hell to put a recording on here for scrutiny by all these people.
I just listened to it and here are my thoughts.
1) You can use some more thickness to the guitar sound. Record another part exactly the same, and put the two parts left and right paned. Not hard right and left, just slightly.
2) Depending on how many tracks you have to work with... Where the heavy guitar stops and the cleaner one starts, make those parts two different takes, that way you don't have to struggle to change your guitar sound. And then where the heavy parts comes back, end the clean take, and begin the heavy take. It's like tag team. Doing it with this method will take 4 tracks just for the guitar.
3) Of course, there's the obvious one, there's no bass guitar in there. Try getting some bass in there.
4) For the vocals, when you hit the hight notes, you're holding back. It's the same thing as when you're listening to the radio and you hear some guy trying to talk like he's really excited about the deals going on at the car dealership, and it sounds like he's trying to make his voice too high for the volume he's speaking at. Had he just really talked at a loud volume, the commercial wouldn't have sounded so dumb. That's the way you can always tell amature commercials from the pros. And, along with that, try adding a stereo echo on the vocals, maybe just a slight one.
5) When you're recording instruments over the drums, REALLY try staying in synch with them. Keep everything REAL tight. If that means doing your take over and over until you get it right on, so be it.
6) How many drum mics are you using? You should have a bass drum mic so that drum isn't up to our imagination to put in there. Also, if you have enough mics, pan the set, so you get that nice left to right roll when you do a fill down the tom toms. I like putting the high-hat to the left, and the ride to the right, and everything in between. That way when you listen to it you can actualy visualize the drummer having to turn his trunk to get to the ride.

That's about it. Thanks for letting me examine under a microscope your music.
 
Brian,

I wouldn't really say I'm brave as hell for putting my music here for everyone to listen to. The way I look at it is, "Hell, no one here knows me, so I don't care." :D

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You can use some more thickness to the guitar sound. Record another part exactly the same, and put the two parts left and right paned. Not hard right and left, just slightly.
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What's the difference between doing it this way, or just copying the original track to another one? Especially if I use the same tone?

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Depending on how many tracks you have to work with... Where the heavy guitar stops and the cleaner one starts, make those parts two different takes, that way you don't have to struggle to change your guitar sound. And then where the heavy parts comes back, end the clean take, and begin the heavy take.
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Actually, this is the way I did it. I use a POD without a pedal, so I have to, unless I want to pause and turn the knobs. :)

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Of course, there's the obvious one, there's no bass guitar in there. Try getting some bass in there.
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Working on this one. I should have a bass withing a few days.

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For the vocals, when you hit the high notes, you're holding back. <snip>
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Well, one, I don't feel that I'm a very good singer. I have no real formal vocal training (a little high school choir, but that was YEARS ago :) ), though I've seriously thought about persuing some. And two, without a limiter, I tend to peak the levels when I sing because I have to sing loud to hit the higher notes. Ah well... my goal is not to become a great singer or guitarist (although it would be nice... I'm just not much into being in the spotlight :) )... my goal is to learn the mixing and the like...

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When you're recording instruments over the drums, REALLY try staying in synch with them. Keep everything REAL tight. If that means doing your take over and over until you get it right on, so be it.
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Again, what my cousin and I recorded is not meant for release or anything (LIT may not like that too much if I did :) )... It was meant more for getting ideas on what I need to do to make it sound a little better... for future reference. But considering the amount of time my cousin and I have invested in it (from first learning all the parts involved to what you heard in the recording... about 2 1/2 hours), I think technically, it's not too bad. With more practice and better recordings, I know it would sound better.

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How many drum mics are you using?
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3 mics. The Radio Shack one on the bass drum, one SM57 on the snare and another SM57 on overhead. I'm looking into getting another mic soon, so I can do the stereo micing on the drums. Possibly either another SM57, or I might go with a Rode NT-1, depending on my finances.

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You should have a bass drum mic so that drum isn't up to our imagination to put in there.
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Oh, it's there. But again, without a limiter, I have a hard time keeping the peak down on it.

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Thanks for letting me examine under a microscope your music.
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No, thank you for all the advice! I'm getting some really good advice from everyone to try out. I truly appreciate everyone taking the time to help me out!

Chris
 
"What's the difference between doing it this way, or just copying the original track to another one? Especially if I use the same tone?"
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The difference is the very slight variasions you play the part each time. One time you may hit the string a thousandth of a second sooner than the next time, and our ears will hear that when listening to the parts stereo. You'll just have to trust me on this one. Pan the part you've already recorded slightly to the left and record the part again and pan that one to the right, you'll notice a big difference. And if you just copy the part you've already recorded to another track and pan them left and right you'll just get phasing going on and it sounds like you're in a small little box, it doesn't do the trick.

The part about not having a limiter for the vocals and having to hold back... that's pretty much what I mean. When you hit the high notes you should be holding back. Try making the high notes a different take, or something like that. Mess around with it until you can get those high notes loud, it's the only way it will sound natural. -Later
 
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The difference is the very slight variasions you play the part each time. One time you may hit the string a thousandth of a second sooner than the next time, and our ears will hear that when listening to the parts stereo. You'll just have to trust me on this one. Pan the part you've already recorded slightly to the left and record the part again and pan that one to the right, you'll notice a big difference. And if you just copy the part you've already recorded to another track and pan them left and right you'll just get phasing going on and it sounds like you're in a small little box, it doesn't do the trick.
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Ahhhh... that makes sense now. Sorry if I seemed a little cocky with the way I asked it. It didn't seem that way until I read your response. :)

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The part about not having a limiter for the vocals and having to hold back... that's pretty much what I mean. When you hit the high notes you should be holding back.
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Ok... I'm confused again. I should be or shouldn't be holding back? AAAAHHHHH! :eek:

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Try making the high notes a different take, or something like that. Mess around with it until you can get those high notes loud, it's the only way it will sound natural.
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This I could probably do without a problem. I have horrible stamina when I sing (I guess the cigs don't help much... doh!)... recording the higher parts on a different take might make it a little easier on me...

thanks for the suggestion!

Chris
 
sorry to confuse you... I mean to say "when you hit the high notes you shouldn't be holding back." High notes are meant to be belted out.
If you are thinking of being a singer, the cigs may not be such a good idea :)
 
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sorry to confuse you... I mean to say "when you hit the high notes you shouldn't be holding back." High notes are meant to be belted out.
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I understand that. But that's what I meant about the limiter. If I set my levels, and they are fine when I'm singing at a normal level, I peak horribly when I belt out a loud, high note. But if I set my levels down low enough to eliminate those peaks, it's too quiet when I sing normal... so should I be using a limiter, or should I just give up singing until I get some lessons? :)

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If you are thinking of being a singer, the cigs may not be such a good idea
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Well, I AM trying to quit... wearing the patch right now, so hopefully I'll be belting them out with the best of them soon! :)
 
great to be able to hear the same sample you guys are discussing...about the vocals, YES! you need a compressor. I really like the dbx 1066. (runs about $399 new)
and how did you mic the drums? you might try going mono on the drums just so you can get a better balance between the kick, snare and everything else.(meaning one mic on each thing mentioned...all panned to center) over all I thought the sample sounded too thin. not enough low end...a bass guitar would help this, but there should be plenty of low frequencies flying around in the room with the drum set for you to capture. keep learning and asking questions. you'll get there!
 
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great to be able to hear the same sample you guys are discussing...about the vocals, YES! you need a compressor. I really like the dbx 1066. (runs about $399 new)
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$$$ is a little tight right now. But I will keep that one in mind. I do have Digital Orchestrator Pro, which has a software Compressor/Limiter/Gate, but I didn't use it on that sample. Like I said, I wanted to keep it dry, since being new at this I would more than likely butcher it all up by messing with it too much.

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and how did you mic the drums? you might try going mono on the drums just so you can get a better balance between the kick, snare and everything else.(meaning one mic on each thing mentioned...all panned to center)
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They are mono right now. Others have suggested that I record them in stereo, which I'm still waiting on my drummer to show up so I can try that. :)

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over all I thought the sample sounded too thin. not enough low end...a bass guitar would help this, but there should be plenty of low frequencies flying around in the room with the drum set for you to capture. keep learning and asking questions. you'll get there!
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The bass guitar is coming real soon, so that should help (I hope!). But that's one of the problems I'm having... keeping it from sounding so thin.

I'm starting to think that there's more to learn with this stuff than becoming a brain surgeon! Hell, I think Med. school is probably cheaper, too... :D
 
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