Need help with microphone choices for upcoming Jazz recording session.

B

Brassguy2015

New member
Hi All,

I have been a huge fan of this forum for a while. I have learned a great deal from alot of the post here.

I would like some suggestions on mic choices for an upcoming jazz session I have. This is the gear I have to work with . I don't like borrowing other peoples gear. I am recording a Jazz quartet . Here is the instrumentation. I am going for a clean, organic sound.

Nylon String Guitar
Keyboard
Upright Bass
Drums
Vocals

Here is is whats in my mic locker-

(2) Sennheiser md421's
(1) Rode NT1a
(1) Rode Nt1a (mike jolly mod)
(1) Ev RE320
(2) Sm57s
(1) Sennheiser E 602 II
(2) Mxl 990
(2) Mxl 991
(2) Samson Co2
(1) Mxl V69me Tube Mic

Outboard Gear-
(2) vintage presonus blue-tube mic pre's with tung sol tubes
(2) radial pro passive di boxes
(1) Presonus Studio Channel tube mic pre.
(1) Focusrite Octo Pre MkII Dynamic
(1) Focusrite Saffire Pro 40

I know the mic choices aren't that great, but it's what I have to work with.
Can you guys please help me with some suggestions on what mic's you would use for THIS situation.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.https://homerecording.com/bbs/images/icons/icon12.png
 
Michael Joly in presonus pre or V69 in pro 40 pre for vocals, 'RE20 for bass 10" out from the bridge (if it gets too much drum bleed then instead wrap a 57 in foam and stick it in the bridge pointing up under the fingerboard of the bass.) 57 on snare 991s overheads Sennheiser or 'RE20(if not on bass) for kick. Samson co2 in tube pre for nylon string 6-8" out from the 12th fret move it around angling it toward the hole and away from the hole to find a sweet spot. 2 sennheisers on acoustic piano pointing at high and low strings or plug it in to saffire pres. These might not be the absolute best, but they're a good starting point and in a pinch they won't be bad.
 
Mike,
Thank you very much for taking time out of your day to help me with this. I would have never have thought to use the Samson Co2 (sdcs) on the guitar.I have pretty good isolation for each instrument. i've got my piano player using a keyboard. Would you suggest using the Radial pro DI boxes for the left and right channel and running them in directly to the saffire?
 
Hi Brassguy, I usually run line level keyboards straight in without DIs but if I had a pair of Radial Pros and had time I would also try them, coming out with mic cords ( mic level ) and compare. Also if you don't use the 57 on the bass and have time I'd compare it to the Samson for the Nylon String.
 
Kit size/setup - can vary greatly with Jazz?

Will the keys player be playing through an amp (will affect spill)?

Just the one vocal?

Is the nylon string guitar using any kind of pickup/mic/acoustic amp combo?

Does the double bass have any kind of pickup (piezo, internal mic etc)?
 
Hi Jake,

Thank you for taking a moment to reply. Just a note. everyone will not be in the same room,so there will be no bleed or spill. Everyone will be isolated in some form or another.

Here some answers to your questions
1-Kit size/setup,
Small Jazz kit-Ride/Crash/Kick/Snare/1 high tom
2-Will the keys player be playing through an amp?
No direct in-
3-Just the one vocal?
yes- only one vocal
4-Does the double bass have any kind of pickup?
Yes the bass has a passive pick up. No internal mic
5-Is the nylon string guitar using any kind of pickup/mic/acoustic amp combo?
Yes the Guitar has a passive pick up- He will not be using an amp- No internal mic either

 
You could do something like this:

2 Condenser mics as drum overheads, sm57 on the snare, e602 on kick, take extra care with mic placement and this should be all you need - I'd venture to suggest that tom micing might not be necessary for Jazz recording since the kit wont be competing with electric guitars, loud vocals, big amped bass guitars.
Modded NT-1 for vocals (because I know the mic, not because it's the only suitable choice.)
Ev RE320 or other dynamic mic on the double bass (though a condenser might also work), take a DI if possible as well in case your mic signal needs reinforcing during mixing.
Use a keyboard amp if possible (mainly because it's what most players are used to when playing with a band), if not, take a line out from the keyboard and maybe put it through an amp sim later on - the feel and 'liveness' can be quite important for Jazz recordings and in my experience it sounds odd with a plain line out keys track.
Try out the various condensers left on the nylon guitar, have a play with what works. Or stick them all up since you probably have the inputs for it.

Recording them all in separate rooms/isolated is an interesting choice for a Jazz band - my experience is that they like to at least have eye contact. For some genres spill isnt always a negative thing and can be integral to the sound...plus if you have a nice-ish room a room mic can work wonders.
 
Guitar and bass are going to be your biggest problem children. I would use a condenser (991?) on the acoustic guitar just above the sound hole, pointing at it. I don't think you will get rumble out of those strings. I would get the mic as close as you can so you don't have to push the gain. I would just go with one mic on the guitar. Usually bridge and 12th for steel strings, but for nylon, getting it to come in with minimum bleed is going to be a problem.

Stand up bass two mics, down low near the sound holes, and another around the neck area. Blend and up the middle in the mix.

It would seem experimentation would be required to get those two instruments to sound right. For the drums, Kick, snare, 2X OH should get you a nice sound. Keyboard if amp'ed the 57's would get you there.
 
Jake,

You got some really good ideas here. I would have never thought to do a keyboard amp sim. I have 2 Rode NT1a's. One is modded the other is not. Would you suggest using the other (un modified) NT1a on the guitar? I have an MXL 67me tube mic. Would that be a good choice for the upright bass? Or should i just stick with the RE320?
 
DM60 said:
Stand up bass two mics, down low near the sound holes, and another around the neck area. Blend and up the middle in the mix.
Click to expand...

+1 for this actually. Better idea than mine. Double basses are not the easiest things to record - I'd still take a DI though, is possible (just because).
 
DM60 said:
Guitar and bass are going to be your biggest problem children. I would use a condenser (991?) on the acoustic guitar just above the sound hole, pointing at it. I don't think you will get rumble out of those strings. I would get the mic as close as you can so you don't have to push the gain. I would just go with one mic on the guitar. Usually bridge and 12th for steel strings, but for nylon, getting it to come in with minimum bleed is going to be a problem.

Stand up bass two mics, down low near the sound holes, and another around the neck area. Blend and up the middle in the mix.

It would seem experimentation would be required to get those two instruments to sound right. For the drums, Kick, snare, 2X OH should get you a nice sound. Keyboard if amp'ed the 57's would get you there.
Click to expand...

DM60,
I very much appreciate your advise. I don't think the bleed from the guitar is going to be an issue since he is a separate room. Or, I just might do a guitar scratch and have him stay later for a clean run through. I'll ask this question to everyone. I was told for jazz, micing the drum OH's "behind" the drummer will give you a great stereo capture of the entire instrument. Would a x/y config be ideal or spaced pair...what has been your experiences?

---------- Update ----------
 
DM60,

Thank you for taking a moment to help me with this. I don't think guitar bleed is going to be a problem because he will be in a different room. Worse case scenario, I could have him stay till after the session and have him do a clean run through.
 
Brassguy2015 said:
DM60,

Thank you for taking a moment to help me with this. I don't think guitar bleed is going to be a problem because he will be in a different room. Worse case scenario, I could have him stay till after the session and have him do a clean run through.
Click to expand...

OK, I thought it was going to be a live room. If he is alone, I would use as many mics as I have and set them around him from various positions and see which one(s) give you the better sound. Even if you have 10 tracks on one take, it isn't going to hurt. You may end up using two. In this case, I would put one down round the bridge area. This is usually done for steel, so I am not sure what results you will get with nylon.

I will say this, nylon when recorded right sound wonderful. Listen to the beginning of Doc Martin. Wonder sound they get out of that recording.


Pretty sure this is nylon strings.
 
I'll ask this question to everyone. I was told for jazz, micing the drum OH's "behind" the drummer will give you a great stereo capture of the entire instrument. Would a x/y config be ideal or spaced pair...what has been your experiences?
 
On Nylon strings, sure? Im not a fan of the Nt1 (unmodded) on steel strings, its a bit bright and does something wierd at 10k ish, but on nylon it can be lovely.

I'd stick to the re230 - I normally aim for dynamics on bass instruments rather than condensers, theyre less sensitive quite often so you can get them a bit closer and eliminate more spill (sometimes)
 
Jake
I can't thank you enough for all your helpful advise. I have an Audio Technica at2020 as well. Would that be a better mic choice for the nylon than the Rode NT1a. Also, I want to get a really warm and round upright bass sound. What is the best way to achieve this, with what I have to work with?
 
The at2020 is just as valid - I've used both for acoustic guitar and they both do a good job if you put them in the right place.

I normally use a spaced pair (overheads) for drum recording, but there is more than one way to get a good sound - I avoid putting the mics directly over the kit, aside from that having them coming from behind/in front of the drummer would depend on how close to walls the kit is and how big the room is.

Getting a 'warm and round' sound for the double bass would be down to mic placement and a good ear for what you're looking for as much as anything else. Followed by some good decision making at the mixing stage, but either mic would be a good starting point. I think DM60 was on the money with that mic setup, but I don't record double basses that often.

I've always found that getting any particular sound (by design rather than that being what comes through the mics) is to spend as much time as is reasonably possible auditioning mic placement and adjusting. Cannot stress this enough, especially with recording live/semi live where you have less leeway for editing/comping/re-hashing parts after the event.

The mics you have are certainly capable of making a good recording so if you take your time with setting everything up and going for a couple of dry runs with the band (lets them get warmed up too if necessary) you should get a good result :-)
 
Yea, Jake is right on the money. What was suggested are just starting points. Because you are recording acoustic instruments, room is going to play a major role in your recording. Since each room is different, mic placement is going to be key.

I think mic placement will be as important, if not more important than mic type. If you want to get a good recording, take some time and work out how the room sounds, recording each instrument to listen on how it comes through the mic, how each mic sounds (put two different mics, record and listen). Remember, the further away the mic, the more room you will hear.

Most likely being a jazz band, your standard for recording I think will be very high. I suggest you approach recording the same way you approach the music. Once you get your sound in that room, your recording will go much faster. But first time will be very slow and tedious.
 
Jake & DM60,

Thank you for taking time to help me with this. I thank you for sharing you valuable experience with me. I have been talking to many seasoned engineers like yourselves. I know I am getting great advise, because you all have said pretty much the same thing. I thank you all again.
 
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