NEED AMP INFO

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ricrac47

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Hi everybody......I'm back. I've already used some of the great tips from all of you. Now I need sore more of your thoughts. I have decided to get away from plugging direct into my 1680, and mic an amplfier. The only problem is that I don't own an amp. That's where you come in. I have been looking around. The Fender Cyber Twin looks interesting. I look like it has a ton of features. $1000 is about what I want to spend. I want something that will give me a ton of options as far as hooking up external fx. Reverb and other extras would be good. I will be using it strictly for recording. I'm sure that there are many good amps out there....I just don't know what features I need for my purpose. I do know that I want it to be very quiet.The only other time I tried this, there was so much amp noise that I gave up. Also any tips on recording using this tecnique would be appreciated. I have a Audio Technica at4033a mic and a ART Tube MP preamp. I also have an ART SGX T2 effects module and a RNC compressor. The 1680 has a full compliment of eq, comp, and fx. Is there anything else I need to mic the amp and get a good sound? As always, thanks for your thoughts. (Foo, If my first reply is not from you, I will be very dissapointed!)
ricrac47
 
Then I am happy to undisappoint(?) you :)

Mesa Boogie make an amp specifically for studio recording (although I believe it can also be used live).

It's called a Formula.

It's a rack mount unit, and basically does it all. I think it may be more than $1,000 new, but you can probably find a good used one for less.

Try the Boogie website for preliminary fact-finding -

http://www.mesaboogie.com

and take it from there.

They also used to make an amp (and maybe still do) called a Studio 22, which was also designed for studio work.

Many knowledgeable guys on this board use and (STRONGLY) endorse an amp simulator called the POD - I have never used one, but the results I have heard ranged from acceptable to really good, depending on the application [Flame me now, POD-lovers:)] POD is available for a lot less than $1,000 - maybe even less than $500 I think!

Good Luck,

foo
 
Well, the POD is about $300, more or less. But I know the 1680 has all kinds of amp modeling and they just don't seem to satisfy anymore--hence the desire for an amp, right? You are going to all kinds of recommendations about the best amp on the market. But what you need is a great recording amp. I would recommend a small amp, 15 - 25 watts, all tube. A Fender Blues Junior comes to mind. Very simple, 15 watts, 12" speaker; or a Pro Junior which has 15 watts and a 10" speaker. Either unit you can crank to get real power tube distortion and still be in the same room. With a small amp, you would record the amp and add effects through the mixer, before or after you record. The cost of the amp (especially if it is a small amp) would leave part of your $1000 to buy an effects unit, if you are unhappy with the 1680's sound effects. Other wise, you can spend a little more on a more expensive recording amp.

BTW, I do own a POD and I think it is the bomb. I record it with my studio monitors on and find that the sound is very live. As real as a tube amp? I don't know, I don't own a tube amp. In fact, I no longer own guitar amps. Do I want a tube amp still? Yeah, but the POD is so much easier to record with and I am thoroughly satisfied with the POD. But if I had the room and money, I think I would still like one good tube amp to record with.

Peace, Jim
 
Let me second Jim's comments.I have the J-Station amp modeler and it's close enough to the real thing for live work where other noise make critical listening impossible.
To capture tone, recording with a small tube amp is simple (slap a 57 in front) and cost effective.This is the sound we all know and love.And its no coincidence all these new tube gadgets are coming out,because digital is "too" clean.
Some famous monster guitar tones were made by Champs,Princetons and their itty-bitty brethren.(Led Zep I was Pagey and an AC30 top boost)

Tom
 
RE: AMP INFO

Thanks for the info everybody. As usual nothing is simple!
Who makes this POD? Is it similar to the Formula pre amp that Foo mentioned? (a rack mount direct module) Can you tell the difference between one of these and a "real" tube amp? I am making demos, not studio finished recordings...and while I want them to sound as good as possible, I want to do it with as little hassle as possible. As far as the 1680.....some of the effects are pretty good. But I find myself using my ART SGX T2 more often then the fx in the 1680. The only trouble is that MANY of the effects in the ART are not applicable for my music. When I see a patch named "Jonny Went Crazy" I'm pretty sure that I won't be using that patch! For vocals, I find the 1680 really lacking. Most of my music is country, and I don't want heavy processing in the vocals. I can't seem to find a really crystal clear light reverb or delay patch, no matter how much I fiddle with the edit functions.
(If anyone knows of an inexpensive, good vocal rack mount with reverb, delay, eq, etc....I would be very interested in your recommendations.) If any of you have a chance go to
http://www.fender.com
and check out the Cyber Twin. I would be interested in what you think. Although I must say that the Formula looked pretty good. The Cyber Twin looked like it could do a lot of things. It could be a lot of bells and whistles....I jusy don't know enough about this subject. The more info I get, the more confused I get! Thanks for your help.
ricrac47
 
The pod is by line 6.The j-station is by johnson.The amp modellers are really good but not exact in their reproduction of tube charactoristics.
My ear hears some differences.Specifically in the "dynamic responsiveness" of the real thing.If you pick softly into a tube amp the tone is cleaner,and as your pick "bites" into the string the additional voltage changes the tone.Blues guys especially like to set up their tube amps right on the edge of harmonic breakup so they can alternate a clean and a gravel tone with their pick (with the guitar vol. pot set about 7).Then for solos,you turn up to ten and saturate the output tubes for a raw,grainy distortion tone.
Unfortunately,I haven't yet seen an amp modeller which can duplicate this trick.

Tom
 
If you find an amp you like the sound of, but there's still too much noise, you might try using a good noise gate to eliminate the noise during pauses in your playing.

The Mesa Boogie someone mentioned is a good amp, I'm somewhat partial to the Roland JC-120 and JC-90 amps.
 
The Pod does some hella nice amp modeling in the studio, great for single note work. I own one and am quite happy with its versatility and effects capabilities. But if you want rich, overdriven rhythm chords singing sweetly of harmonics, this dude can't do it. Gotta have a toobers.
 
Your 'the more I find out the more confused I get' is a feeling I am very familiar with.

Here's your solution -

Buy a Mesa Boogie - they are stunning!

Clean, shimmering, chiming, ballsy, mega-distortion, all sound GREAT!

foo
 
The new Cyber Twin does have all the bells and whistles...yet it will probably discount at around $1200.I saw Greg Koch demonstrate it,and it seemed to have all the dynamic ranges of touch.
 
If you want good tone.....I mean great tone, forget about all the bells and whistles and fx and modeling. The best tube amps around can be summed up in three words:

RIVERA RIVERA RIVERA

They might be a little more than you were wanting to spend but they DO everything from Fender to Marshall, Blues to Metal not just pretend. You can probably find a small used combo in your price range too. And you can call their customer service and talk to Paul Rivera in person if you need to.

http://www.rivera.com
 
Well, from what you are suggesting about your uses, I would probably recommend one of the amp modelers.

Yes, a small combo will give you a very good tone, probably even great for a lot of things. I have a tube amp that I love playing through.

I have to say that for recording, for sheer simplicity and inspiration - being able to find a sound and capture it quickly, a modeler will do great. Plug and play so to speak.

I recently got a Yamaha DG Stomp, which is their direct recording unit, and I haven't recorded a thing with my amp since I got it. It has fewer amp models than the POD or J-Station, but I think its sounds are more realistic "tube" sounds. It also has a SPDIF digital out, as does the J-Station, which may be convenient (don't know) with your 1680.

The DG, more than the other modelers I think, really captures a lot of the dynamic responsiveness of a tube amp. You can back off on pick attack or volume and it really cleans up the sound. It runs about $300.

For your budget, maybe get a modeler, a small tube combo (one of the Fenders or similar) and a decent lower end Lexicon effects unit.

With that mix, you can get a TON of sounds and flexibility in your budget.

If you're interested, myself and others will happily spam you with samples of recordings done with amp modelers. ;)
 
you really just need to read the mags, try the stuff out at the shop, and take a few risks in purchase now and then to get this stuff sorted out.

the user reviews at http://www.harmony-central.com
are priceless in narrowing down your choices.

Rivera and matchless(now defunct) are my fav's. For an example of tone from a rivera check out david torns guitar work. A rivera will make you beleive I promise. It will also make a flextone sound artificial, even in your recordings

You have to use your ears.I havent heard the cyber twin.The yamaha dg might be what you want, or a johnson millenium(wich is used by adrian belew)
Dont forget rocktron either.

I think the mesa formula is around $700 and it has 5 12 ax7's. and 3 channels. But for that price you could also get a very competent amplifier and add a speaker simulater/atteunuater that will take its load accomplishing the same ends and allowing you to play it for other purposes as well.

A few suggestions. In the early 90's mr. soldano designed some amps for yamaha that go way cheaper then the ones bearing his name. Personally I am using an ampeg vl 1002 wich was designed by lee jackson. when I turn it up it sounds way better then a flextone and I bought the head used for $299 4 years ago.

Really a used rivera will give you a lot.

If you dont like modelers dont get a modeling amp. But before you write them off I think that there are amps by rocktron and yamaha that sound a little better then the spider or marquis. The flextone and johnson millenium are worth a demo. I still like tube sounds.

As fun as the pod is my amp is where its at. I warn you though, If you dont have some things figured out your most likely not going to get a good tone mic'ing it for your recording. In fact its really difficult to get it all perfect between the room mics, amp,speaker, pickups. Many discriminating guitarists insist on tubes because theyve figured out how to do it. Other guitarists have happily put their tube gear in the closet.

Id reccomend a hybird of amps, speaker simulators(like the palmer) ,modelers like the pod and dg, tube pre amps and power amps for direct recording like the budda slavemaster etc.with your tube amp youll want a tube screamer or a rat and an e.q. pedal(or rack)

And a power attenuator like the hot plate by thd will help you get good tones at reasonable volume.

http://www.amptone.com -check it out and see some other tips.

cool amps?
matchless, rivera, thd, hughs and kettner, fender, budda, mesa boogie, dumble, marshall plexi, soldano, peavy 5150, bogner...

For amps its about driving the power tubes. the power tubes dictate most of the dynamics. And pre amp distortion isnt cool until youve driven the power section.

Still each of these different units has its own sound. Its gotta be what you hear. At your price you could get a few things.
 
RE:AMPS

Thanks everyone. You have given me a lot to think about. I need to try some of these amps and pods etc, etc. There seems to be two distinct camps. The "tube" camp and the "pod" camp...withe a few variations thrown in. For the money and ease of operation, I am leaning toward the POD (and a small tube amp.) Then I'll have the best of both worlds! Anybody have any thoughts on these amps for electric/accoustic guitars ie. Fender Accoustasonic or Crate Accoustic Amp? Is an amp like one of these going to give me anything more than a regular tube amp. I would like to improve the sound of my Electric/Accoustic guitar, and using a mic may do the trick. But I assume a Mesa Boogie or any other good amp would do the same thing. I guess my question is, is there anything special about these amps that are "made" for electric/accoustic guitars? Also, sure, if anyone has any sound bytes of their amps, PODs, or anything else....send them my way. I would love to listen to the different options. I am esp. interested is stuff that will give me some good Country sounds. Thanks everyone!
ricrac47
 
BOTH!!!

Hey ricrac,

I would definitely suggest playing the different amp modelers if you haven't tried them yet. I am kind of in the middle of both camps, meaning "tube" and "modeler." Like Robert, I think tubes are definitely where it is at for live stuff, and if I could afford it and had space to record in at volume, I would definitely consider buying some different tube amps to get those tones.

Like I said, however, I don't have money or space right now. Also like Robert said, it is MUCH easier to capture a good tone with a modeler - maybe it won't "quite" be as good as a tube amp mic'd when it is on tape, but that is assuming you do the proper job of recording it. It is definitely easier to dial in a tone to fit in the niche of your mix with a modeler IMO. Tones that sound like crap on their own often work great in the context of the mix.

A couple things - if you are planning on using an amp for strictly recording, don't bother getting a modeling amp - just get one of the stand alone modelers. You will end up running direct anyway (most likely) and so you're paying for the amp you don't need. If you are going the route of micing the amp, definitely get a nice tube amp you like. A combination of the tube combo and a modeler will give you great flexibility, like you yourself said. Just be aware like Robert mentioned, you really need to be able to crank the amp a bit to get the real tube sound.

For acoustic, also don't bother getting an amp to record with. If you don't already have one, buy a decent mic specifically designed for instrument micing (check the mic forum, there are lots... the Rode NT3 is probably one of your best bets at the real budget -$150- level). Mic the guitar and run a line from the pickup direct and then blend the two signals. That will probably give you a better tone than an acoustic amp, which is designed more for gigging than for recording.

I have two songs up at MP3.com that I recorded all the guitars direct using my Yamaha DG Stomp. Check out "Addiction," which is kind of a Pink Floyd sounding tune (long too... lol) with a lot of layered guitars all over it. The guitar solo at the end was run through a harmonizer plug in after recording on the computer, but otherwise it is pretty much all straight from the Stomp. Also listen to "Reasons," which is another layered guitar tune recorded through the Stomp. It uses mainly cleaner sounds, but you can hear at the end, during the leads, you can hear an overdrive sound, and you can probably hear the dynamics of the "modeling" which I mentioned before.

http://www.mp3.com/TheShadyNeighbor

Check them out, and lots of people can point you to POD clips also. (In the POD thread, follow the link to Dthraco's page. He has a lot of clips, and links to some even better POD sample pages.) Personally, I don't like the J-Station as much, but many people do, and it's just a matter of preference.
 
May I suggest the Line 6 Flextone? Although a Boogie was a little out of my budget, the Flextone will give you the POD sounds and the ability to play live with it. I love mine. You have the ability to record direct just like the POD or you could mike the amp as well. I have been miking mine with a 57 and getting great results.

I was a "tube" guy for years and I still believe a tube amp is the best overall sounding unit. But for the money and vast different sounds, effects, built in tuner and switchability of the floor board. The flextone is a great choice.
 
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