Need advice on a PA setup

P

pint07

Oh hello
I was put in charge of buying a sound system for a local youth committee. It's going to be used in small venues (churchs, rec centers) for local shows. I know a i need a horn, a woofer, a graphic eq, a sub, crossover, a poweramp, mixer, mics, compressor.

Budget is about $2000

Questions i have:

What kind of specs do I need to look for for a poweramp to power a horn a woofer and sub (generally, for a small venue)?

What do I do as far as horn and woofer placement?

I know little to nothing when it comes to crossovers...

What goes where in the chain? Sound to crossover to compressor to mixer to eq to poweramp to speakers?

Is there anything that I should know? i have a studio, and i wouldn't consider myself a "newbie" when it comes to that, but I'm posting here because i know jack shit about live sound.
 
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pint07 said:
I was put in charge of buying a sound system for a local youth committee. It's going to be used in small venues (churchs, rec centers) for local shows. I know a i need a horn, a woofer, a graphic eq, a sub, crossover, a poweramp, mixer, mics, compressor.

Budget is about $2000

Questions i have:

What kind of specs do I need to look for for a poweramp to power a horn a woofer and sub (generally, for a small venue)?

What do I do as far as horn and woofer placement?

I know little to nothing when it comes to crossovers...

What goes where in the chain? Sound to crossover to compressor to mixer to eq to poweramp to speakers?

Is there anything that I should know? i have a studio, and i wouldn't consider myself a "newbie" when it comes to that, but I'm posting here because i know jack shit about live sound.
Click to expand...

"i know jack shit about live sound" + "I was put in charge of buying a sound system" = tears before bedtime.

try an active system for front of house, e.g. like:http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=98474

The MSR400 active speakers will cost you about $500 to $600 each. Don't worry about subs unless you got the budget, the msr400s have a respectable range.


Look at mixing desks such as these: http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--YAMMG166CX.

They are about $400, and come equipped with a rnage of effects.

Getting active speakers means you don't have to worry about crossovers. Getting FX built-in means you don't have to worry about these as separate units.

Spend the rest on mike cables, stands and whatever.
 
gecko zzed is right on with his answer to your question you will not have to worry about a thing but plugging in if you purchase an active system everything is done for you.
 
the order is I believe: mix outs- eq- compressor- crossover- and the amount of amps for the amount you split the signal(hi, mids, lows). And of course the woofers and horns. But I can't imagine why you would need such a complex setup in your situation.
 
Gecko always seems to give good, (ahem) sound advice. Hard to find fault with his recommendation this thread, either.

I have a lot of info below- whatever is in bold is of most importance, if you need a quick read, go to that.

Gecko's mixer suggestion has a good number of inputs- I would go with 16- no fewer.

You don't mention if you will be using a snake (typically 16 cables that bring the signal from the stage to the sound booth or tent, 4 cables that bring it back to speakers- thus a "16X4" snake) but you might want one if your budget allows. A snake allows you to HAVE a sound booth or tent, otherwise the sound man is on stage or just off in the wings- not the best place to hear what the sound is like for the house. Most snakes should NOT be used with a powered MIXER, as it can burn out the 4 "returns. The only solution is a "hot" snake, and they cost much more.

IMO, the powered mixer Jim Lad is less than ideal for three reasons:
1. Incompatable with snakes you might afford.
2. Only 8 inputs with pre-aps (XLR inputs, for mics)
3. Behringer has a bad (and well-deserved, IMO) reputation, esp. with mixers.

The three options you have for the mixer/amp/speaker are:
1. Powered mixer (amps in it)-passive speakers.
2. Passive mixer-powered speaker (speakers have amps built into them.)
3. Passive mixer-power amp (located as close to the speakers as is practical)-passive speakers.
IMO, the last setup is the most flexible but the most complicated. As you are a NOOB, setup 2 is probably the best for you.

Forget crossovers, regardless of what setup you go with- you will be out of your league. Get some experience under your belt, first. Same with subs- added complexity/headaches you don't need right now. And don't EVEN get a compressor right now- you will be flabbergasted by "all the knobs and buttons" on it. An EQ is primary used to control feedback- there is always a small one (3 to 4 bands) on all mixers, which should do you for now. If you must get one, you should go with a 31-band X 2 channel unit, which will probably bust your budget. Each of these devices- EQ and compressor- will necessatate yet another cable, which means a little more money spent. KISS (keep it simple, stupid!) and KIIB (TRY to keep it in budget.)

Another thing you don't ask about is stage monitors. Most all mixers have one, two or more monitor outs- two is enough for what you will be doing. Use two of the snake's returns for the monitors- two powered, 50-100 watt monitored speakers will do you fine.

One piece of advice Gecko leaves out is about buying mics. Shure SM58's are the industry standard- not cheap, but, well, not cheap. Their reliability, durability and sound make them worth the price. Shure also makes a SM57, which is a bit more an "instrument" mic (in front of amps, horns, etc.)- whereas the 58 is more "vocal-" but 58's tend to work better as inst. mics than 57's do as vocals. Seindheiser makes good mics, too, and they tend to be a bit less expensive than Shure, but IMHO the Shures are worth the extra coin. Be VERY careful you don't buy Shure counterfeits- do NOT buy mics via eBay, or used- you simply lack the experience to be sure you don't get burned. If you decide you need semi-disposable mics, NADY makes some that, although perhaps not as good or robust as Shures, are much cheaper. If the users of the mics are inclined to not respect them as the precision instruments they are, you might go with those cheap NADY's. One stand per mic is fine, but get extra mic cables- they take a lot of abuse; have a spare or two on-hand, you will thank me later.

Get a pair of SPEAKER STANDS for the house speakers.

There is a WORLD of difference between SPEAKER and INSTRUMENT cables, although they can look a lot alike. They are NOT interchangable.


Here is the basic signal chain, which includes everything you originally said you thought you needed. For things you don't get (compressor, sub, maybe EQ) just take them out of the list: ( ">" means "connected to.")

POWERED MIXER SETUP (not recommended, IMO): Mixer >expensive hot snake> speaker cables > passive speakers. Compressor and EQ connected to one of the mixer's effects loops (see what I mean by complexity? Already we are talking about things you have never heard of...)

PASSIVE MIXER/ POWERED SPEAKERS (recommended for your present skill level): Mixer >EQ > compressor (EQ and compressor can be on effects loop, or in-line) > snake > instrument cables > speakers.

SEPARATE POWER AMP(S): Mixer > EQ > compressor (EQ and compressor can be on effects loop, or in-line) > snake > instrument cables > amp(s) > speaker cables > speakers.

Run house speakers in MONO, not stereo. Lots of good reasons, which all boil down to easier life for you and better sound for everyone in the audience. Similarly, one monitor feed is best, unless you have REAL good reasons for more (prima donna on stage, real problems with some musicians needing more/less of other musicians in "their" monitor)- and then, NO MORE THAN TWO. Monitor mixes are the most mind-boggling, you do NOT want that kind of mess in your life, right now.

One more thing about EQ's: They tend to be used to "fix" the room acoustics, but you are opening a real can o worms, there. Use them, sparingly, to fix feedback, and let the room be what it is.

One more thing about compressors: Best used VERY sparingly, too. I use them to protect my speakers from a belter vocalist who keeps asking for more of him/her self in the monitors- and learned that lesson by losing a monitor.

When buying, you will be better off with a PRO AUDIO company, not a general music store like most mom-n-pops or Guitar Center. You may pay a little more, but you will get better advice, less probability of being sold something that is pretty much useless to you, much better service and support after the sale, and probably a more generous trade-in policy if you decide to up grade. You might even get, if you ask for it, someone to help you set the system up the first time you use it.

Do me a favor- print this out and bring it to the pro audio seller you go to- ask the sales person to read it, and give you his opinion. Let us know what he did, and did not, agree with.

Good luck.
 
Thanks to everyone for the all the advice.

First off, the genre of music being played in this venue REQUIRES a sub. It's just a must. 2nd, I was already planning on sm58s. 3rd, I think i have a little more experience with this than I gave myself credit for. I am new to it doing it myself, but I have a bit of experience and I know a little bit of what I'm talking about. There is absolutely no way that I am going to a pro audio dealer. I'm a huge fan of eBay and craigslist, and that's where the majority of this is going to come from. I definitely have the experience to not get burned there. My entire home studio came off eBay and i'm 100% satisfied.

Also, I am not at all a fan of active speakers, so I'm trying to do this powered mixer or amp to passive speakers. I know it's more complicated, but I already have experience with active speakers, and I"m not a fan. Time to move up from that.

After reading all of this, I'm thinking about doing something like this now:

Signal to Powered Mixer to EQ (the room where we're playing is LESS than ideal for sound, so I need to do everything I can to help with that... even if that means spending a lot of time tweaking) to 2 speakers with built in woofers and horns on each side of stage. Then one on stage monitor from an aux/sub out on the mixer. One sub in the center.

Questions for revised idea ^ :

1) How much power will I need from the powered mixer to amplify the speakers like the ones Jim Lad suggested + a small on stage monitor + a 15" sub?
2) What's a good but cheap on stage kick mic? (I'm only planning on micing the kick)
3) Assuming that I"m getting a sub anyway, even though it's not advised, will I need the crossover for it?
 
My impression is that you think you need more gear than you do.

Here's what I got for smaller venues. A lot of people will crap on it but I know it sounds fine:

Behringer all-in-one pa PMX2000
a pair of JBL 12" + horn speakers
a pair of Ultimate Support speaker stands

The total cost at the local music store was $800. Beyond that you need cables, mics, and mic stands. That should be fine in a room that would hold around 100 people, or more.

Separate amps and crossovers are not needed, and add tons of hassle.

The main thing is the speakers. Don't buy crappy speakers! Don't buy speakers in plastic cabinets. If the speakers are mounted on the wall, I'd take the metal grilles off of them, as metal grilles sound like garbage cans.

You can make your own speaker cables dirt cheap by buying the ends and getting the wire from Home Depot - just use lamp cable, music store type speaker cable is a con-job that's been going on forever.

I ended up adding a Behringer subwoofer cabinet but I don't use it much as it's like moving around a washing machine. :mad:

I'd highly recommend sticking with JBL speakers in wooden boxes because they sound right and they have a track record. In the end, the speakers are what you hear and they are, by a long shot, the most important component.
 
So, you are not the NOOB we thought. That's great, no disrespect intended, just going on what you initially told us.

Okay, so you have had good luck with ebay/Craigslist. So have I, and there is no doubt the prices are lower (used gear does that...) Sure, buy everything there- EXCEPT DON'T BUY SM58's ON EBAY. I still can't over emphasize that. And I stand by my suggestion for a Pro shop, (they almost always have used gear, too, but admittily sell it for more than MOST Craigslist'ers) over Guitarget. The pro shops don't sell for much (if any) more than Guitarget, and the point-of-sale AND after-sale info and support will be VASTLY better. Most Mom-n-Pops are WAY ouf of their league on pro audio, too. Of course, if you buy used via CL/ebay, it's 110% caveat emptor- and if things go south, YOU will get the blame. Not so with the pro shops. You can usually get most of the same benefits from a pro shop by buying only SOME of the gear there.

Yes, if you gotta go with sub(s), some kind of crossover is needed. Several boards have a sub-out (not to be confused with sub-ins, which are TOTALLY different animals) so there you go for that. But, seriously, dude, DON'T GO WITH A POWERED MIXER. That is a step DOWN from powered speakers. The proper hot snake will bite your budget, bad, and the resulting venom could kill the whole project. (Sorry, could not resist the golden opportunity for a pun, there!) Plus, if you have either a mixer or amp failure, you are shut down until it is fixed. AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STAY FAR, FAR AWAY FROM BEHRINGER MIXERS.

A separate power amp or two gives you flexibility you will NEVER see in a mixer-amp setup. Never.

And, finally, room acoustics are best treated in the ROOM, not the SYSTEM. Mounting speakers on the wall, "beamed" at the audience members on the last row, helps alot (not gonna get into the why's of this, you can research it easily.) If your room sucks that badly, surely other users are hearing the suckiness, too. (I can relate, btw.) Replacing the pews with upholstered chairs made a big effect in our little 130-seating UU church, btw, but that sort of move certainly can have it's detractors. Something as simple as a few decorative quilts hung on the back wall can have a big effect. If astetics are an issue, have some folks who are members of the church make the quilts, with themes that reflect the congregation's beliefs, etc. You get the benefit of better room sound, PLUS the buy-in of more church members (trust me, this is VERY important) and everybody thinks you are a hero for making sunday morning services sound better. Cheap, too- usually the materials will be paid for by the quilters.

And if you are on a REAL tight budget, try this little thing, on Atlanta's (you guessed it!) Craig's List: (somebody who knows how, please copy the post to this thread so it will show up forever) :laughings:

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/msg/1604837217.html
 
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Stevie, thanks a bunch for all the info.

The SM-58s I would definitely do a Craigslist sort of deal where i'm able to go and TEST them before buying. For sure. There's too many fakes out there. Too popular of a product (for reason... but still).

Ok, so I should just do unpowered mixer with 2 preamps and a crossover then?

I love the quilt idea. Seriously that's brilliant. I think I'm going to set that up. The main room that the system is for is actually a rec center building, but the committee who's sponsoring all of this would still be all for setting up the quilt thing.

Holy crap, 16 speakers? How would that work?
I'm actually from the Atlanta area, so that's potentially an idea. That's crazy though, 16 speakers? Whoa...
 
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