need advice-how to approach this project

[FALKEN]

I have been recording myself for the last 8 years, and today a friend of a friend asked me to record his band. I agreed only to do it if I like the music, and I heard it today, and its awesome. I am extremely excited because it will be a learning experience for me, and I will get to be a lot more creative because I'm not running the equipment and performing, for the first time. I have built my studio around a sound that I want to acheive. This band and I share very, very similar musical goals, but the music is totally different from anything I have done.

The band could be described as avant-garde noise punk. It is a drummer and a (heavily distorted) synth player and the drummer sings. he only has 1 cymbal (a crash), and doesn't play the hat. they want to record the synth direct. the music is loud and fast and incoherent, but at the same time meaningful and expressive. They want to record to tape.

The demo I heard was recorded onto their laptop....using the microphone in the laptop. The mic input was clipping the entire time and added a whole layer of distortion over what was already distorted. I think that they like this sound, but want it to sound better. They have a label that wants to release the cd. a big part of the sound is that the drums are distorted. they want to keep things minimal, and real.

so I have to come up with a way to capture this chaos, and make it sound even more distorted and lo-fi. they don't care if there is tape hiss or not.

really the only idea I have come up with is re-amping the drums, maybe through my PA or fender twin...or maybe even a boombox.

I have at my disposal:

-shure sm57
-shure 55
-shure 51
-shure 545 unidyne III (3)
-ev re-15
-ev re-20
-ev 635a (2)
-uher m534
-sennheiser md421 U5
-akg d12e
-oktava mk-319
-cad 95 (2)
-at 4033
-at 4050

-bellari rp220 dual tube mic pre
-presonus blue tube dual mic pre
-FMR RNP

-various outboard compressors
-random eq's
-fostex 3180 stereo spring reverb
-fostex E-16
-layla24 8i/o
-16 channel inline board
-various portable acoustical baffles
-a whole house, including the garage


if the synth goes direct then I am really only recording drums and vocals, which I then have to distort and compress and/or limit. they would be open to amping the synth though. the presonus can get a lot of distortion on its own, and might be all I need, coupled with the 4033 and 4050 in M/S (my first thought). any suggestions, ideas, experineces with this type of music much appreciated, because I want it to sound as good as this band does.

 

[ssscientist]

If they are experienced at all at playing together, then I would strongly recommend you change as little as possible. Have them set up in the room of your choice - not the garage for now - and plan to use the Layla to track to a computer.

Have them run thru a few before going for good takes of the songs with both of them playing at once. If there are necessary vocal cues, try to set up a monitoring system that doesn't leak into the recording mics too much. Split the synth signal using a bought or borrowed direct box. Be sure you get one that allows a signal to pass through as well as a tap to take it direct --- NOT this. This, however, might be just what the doctor ordered. The 4033 would probably be a good choice for the synth amp.

Now on to the drums. I would set up a barebones micing - one on the kick, one on the snare and a single overhead. I would use the 421 on the kick, a 57 on the snare and the AT 4050 in cardioid mode as an o/head. Move the mics as needed but only add more as a last resort - or if you just simply can't hear the floor tom, for instance.

They probably don't know quite the sound they're looking for and the label probably liked more about the demo than the distorted drums.

As far as distortion goes, don't be afraid to get really radical. I mean REALLY radical. I've always got some unrepeatable stuff every time I start reampling with the express idea of fucking some shit up --- vocals, drums or whole mixes. It never ceases to amaze me how many shades of distortion there are and how moving a mic just a little on an amp can make the difference between appropriate and useless. Let them take several versions from radical to tame home and listen to them. If you do this right and don't try to overdo it or think too much about it you may have a sympatico relationship in the making...

 

[giraffe]

often people that say they want lo fi mean
"make us sound good, but not so glossy that we feel like we just sold out"

just record them, and they'll probably be happy.

i'd take the synth both mic, and direct..... the amp adds a little something you just can't get out of wire.

maby try something fun like, when all the tracks are done re-amp the entire album into something with a pleasing distortion, and mix that back in under the actual tracks

might sound like shit, might not.

i'd like to do some good noise rock!!!

 

[giraffe]

really the only idea I have come up with is re-amping the drums, maybe through my PA or fender twin...or maybe even a boombox.

oops, i only skimed, you already thought of that.

 

[bennychico11]

I agreed only to do it if I like the music, and I heard it today, and its awesome.

just out of curiosity, why did you say that? I've never understood why some engineers only agree to record music they know or like (ie. Christian recording studios). I can understand if you're only strong in recording one style of music...but whether you like their compositions or not shouldn't matter. Respecting someone's desire to make music by offering your talents as an engineer to aid to their creativity should be all that an engineer is concerned about. Besides, learning a different way of recording can only add to your toolbox of techniques.

I guess this may be a topic for another thread, though.

Good luck all the same.

 

[foreverain4]

just out of curiosity, why did you say that? I've never understood why some engineers only agree to record music they know or like (ie. Christian recording studios). I can understand if you're only strong in recording one style of music...but whether you like their compositions or not shouldn't matter. Respecting someone's desire to make music by offering your talents as an engineer to aid to their creativity should be all that an engineer is concerned about. Besides, learning a different way of recording can only add to your toolbox of techniques.

I guess this may be a topic for another thread, though.

Good luck all the same.

it is sooo much easier to record music you like. i have stopped recording poetry cd's, narration, and cover bands for that exact reason.

 

[Robert D]

just out of curiosity, why did you say that? I've never understood why some engineers only agree to record music they know or like (ie. Christian recording studios). I can understand if you're only strong in recording one style of music...but whether you like their compositions or not shouldn't matter. Respecting someone's desire to make music by offering your talents as an engineer to aid to their creativity should be all that an engineer is concerned about. Besides, learning a different way of recording can only add to your toolbox of techniques.

I guess this may be a topic for another thread, though.

Good luck all the same.

I agree to a point, but there's moving out of your comfort zone & expanding your skills, and then there's disastorous mismatching of artists and engineers/producers. If a producer/engineer hates the genre, and doesn't relate at all to what the music is communicating (music is a form of communication), then they are unlikely to effectively facilitate that communication. If you don't get it, you're not gonna help anyone else get it.

-RD

 

[bigtoe]

"really the only idea I have come up with is re-amping the drums, maybe through my PA or fender twin...or maybe even a boombox."

send tracks to headphones and distort...then mic. love it.

sounds like a fun project - i used to do a lot of stuff like that. I think as long as you record them as they are - the "fi" will work itself out. if not - try distorting some tracks in various ways...

"just record them, and they'll probably be happy."

words to live by.

Mike

 

[bennychico11]

I agree to a point, but there's moving out of your comfort zone & expanding your skills, and then there's disastorous mismatching of artists and engineers/producers. If a producer/engineer hates the genre, and doesn't relate at all to what the music is communicating (music is a form of communication), then they are unlikely to effectively facilitate that communication. If you don't get it, you're not gonna help anyone else get it.

-RD

no i understand that...but I'm saying don't pay attention to the style and whether or not you like it. Pay attention to the actual SOUND itself. "How does this guitar fit in with the bass?", "What mic should I use on the vocals?", "What EQ works well on the snare?"
Bruce Miller in his courses has said:

Why do you need to be more open-minded?
You will learn to appreciate more things that may only exist in other styles. Jazz piano should sound very different from rock or classical piano. If you do not LISTEN to jazz, you will not understand WHY it should be both intimate and aggressive. Rock drum sounds use the room differently than jazz. Rap vocals need to sit differently than ballads.
I can’t tell you how often I used something I learned from a different style of music while working. I have used rock mixing “tricks” for hiphop and club “tricks” for jazz. I have always sought out weird and different stuff to work on in order to keep myself from getting “stale” or in the “rut” of a single type of music.

I'm saying don't HATE a particular genre of music just because you don't listen to it on a regular basis. Engineering a record is not casual listening that you do in the car on the drive home. Engineering is using your ears to effectively create a peice of art. If you don't know the style well enough, buy some CDs and listen to them not for entertainment value but for a learning experience. Or ask the musicians recording what kind of sound they are going for on their snare or bass.

I think if you have no bias towards the song at all, you can make an even better sounding recording. If you really love the song, you can get easily offended after you mix and someone says "Yeah, sounds good...but I think the guitars need a little more umpf in the bottom end, and can you bring up the drums some more around the chorus...and maybe we should retrack that solo." Kinda like the same way mastering engineers help provide a new ear to things, a recording engineer can help provide a new ear and opinion on the song that maybe the musicians weren't thinking about...especially when they have no emotional tie to the song.

and foreverain, personally i get bored doing the same stuff over and over....recalling the same presets over and over because "that's how it should sound" and because it's "easy". I don't know much about blue grass music but you can bet I'd love to have a banjo in the studio or dueling mandolins all in the same room.

sorry, if i started stealing this thread.

 

[FALKEN]

well, the reason is that I don't run a studio. I work a day job and that funds my own band, and my studio which I built to record my own music. I don't need the money. and I don't need to waste any time on somebody else's music. I think 98% of the local bands in my city suck. I agreed to do it because I thought it would be fun.

i'd like to do some good noise rock!!!

now can we bring the topic back to how to make these guys sound great???

I think "just record them and they'll be happy" is pretty good advice. I think where I am going though is that this noise punk stuff is actually a whole sub-genre, with tons of bands, that I just wasn't aware of until now. so it would be like asking how to get good bluegrass tones. only bluegrass you are going for natural tones....the tones on this recording need to be very unnatural, which is something I have no experience with.

re-amping seems like the best route for flexibility, but I think that pushing the pre's into distortion might give a better tone....with much much less flexibility.

since the guy only uses 1 cymbal I am thinking stereo overheads might be a really bad idea. although I am dying to try out my new M/S setup on drums.

I think you are right about the synth needing to be amped. I think I'll put it through my musicman and hide it in the garage. what do you use to get the signal balanced and then DI'd into the amp? a pair of DI's, right? do they all go in reverse?

 

[giraffe]

yea, it's a bigger sub genre than you might expect.
Chicago is home base for that stuff and it's where Albini got a lot of his original notoriety from. (which he odviously built on in many ways since then)

keyboard-di. di goes both into amp and mixer (2 outputs on a di one is amp, one is mic)

i like the idea of ms on the overheads cause there's not a lot of places to get deapth in a project that small. but i would get some more opinions on that if i was you.

i don't see any pre's i'd really like to hear overdriven besides the bellari....
and that only kinda.

might put some room mic's thru it, or maby the vox.
take your time in set up, that's the only real advice i got.

 

[FALKEN]

hey ssscientist, does that whrilwind box have an XLR out? Half of the jacks are hidden in the pic. I need something to take an instrument cable a long distance via conversion to balanced, then convert back to the instrument level to go into the amp.... also a splitter might be good too...

 

[giraffe]

all di's have mic outs, that's what they're for (don't drown me in technicalities)

I need something to take an instrument cable a long distance via conversion to balanced, then convert back to the instrument level to go into the amp....

make sure to get a passive di, active ones don't go "backwards"

 

[KonradG]

I agree to a point, but there's moving out of your comfort zone & expanding your skills, and then there's disastorous mismatching of artists and engineers/producers. If a producer/engineer hates the genre, and doesn't relate at all to what the music is communicating (music is a form of communication), then they are unlikely to effectively facilitate that communication. If you don't get it, you're not gonna help anyone else get it.

-RD

Would a true professional engineer/producer (not a home-studio guy) agree that mismatching would be using a hip hop engineer for pop, or a rock engineer for rap? Would a rock producer/engineer take any rock band? I would definitely think so.
Dont respond saying "I only record bands that i like at my studio because its my studio and plus i got a real job anyway", because im not looking for your opinion.

 

[Robert D]

Would a true professional engineer/producer (not a home-studio guy) agree that mismatching would be using a hip hop engineer for pop, or a rock engineer for rap? Would a rock producer/engineer take any rock band? I would definitely think so.
Dont respond saying "I only record bands that i like at my studio because its my studio and plus i got a real job anyway", because im not looking for your opinion.

I'm a little confused.......are you asking me a question and then saying your not looking for my opinion? There's no facts in this matter, only opinions. Also, I'm not by definition a professional. So my "I've got a real job anyway" opinion is that, no, crossing genres isn't necessarily a mismatch. As a client, what's always been important to me is that the AE wants to work on the project, and feels the beat, and hears the lyrics, and understands where the song is taking you. Given good recording fundimentals and equipment, that appreciation is what's important to me. Otherwise there's an energy that doesn't tend to make it onto the record. I love recording different types of music, and really enjoyed recording some east Indian music recently. But if I can't close my eyes and feel the music and let it take me somewhere then I'm probably doing a dis-service to the artist by trying to capture the energy of their music.

Falken - Sorry for the hijack. Just don't try to overproduce these guys. I'm sure what makes this thing they're doing work is very elemental, and that's what needs capturing.....but you already knew that.

-RD

 

[ssscientist]

I've already weighed in with my opinion of just what you need to do to get a good, hard edged sound out of these guys. While they're bashing it out catch it as faithfully as you can, then finish it by distorting the shit out of it while they coach you. Then listen to it in a day or two and be ready to start from scratch if necessary --- with the mixing, not the playing.

 

[FALKEN]

I've already weighed in with my opinion of just what you need to do to get a good, hard edged sound out of these guys. While they're bashing it out catch it as faithfully as you can, then finish it by distorting the shit out of it while they coach you. Then listen to it in a day or two and be ready to start from scratch if necessary --- with the mixing, not the playing.

this could definitely work. other than reamping (which may or may not work really, I've never tried it, except on vocals once, with a gorilla amp which I wish was mine), what else can I do for distortion?

edit- I just realized I'm a guitar player and I have like 10 different analog distortion boxes around here. coupled with a pair of those DI's, I could bounce each track with a different dist...what do you think of this?

 

[FALKEN]

2 more things..

that I think will be critical to this recording:

1-that really big snare sound that slaps back and says "i'm playing near a wall" ; like that led zeppelin song that starts off with the snare roll and goes "every word I say, ever move I make, please don't go"...the raegge one. that or the snare sound on in utero. thats gotta be going on under the NIN distorto snare.

2-this guy is going to beating his crash cymbal like it slept with his girl like, the entire album. should I spare my condensers and go with a dynamic? I think I am going to skip overheads and just mic the cymbal and close mic the drums, and use a room mic or 2.

 

[Joel Hamilton]

Record it to the best of your ability. Build in a couple, just a COUPLE of "flavor" mics on the way in, that help point the recording in a direction.

Do the rest of the destruction during the mix.

Make it sound really good, then choose your battles with certain sounds. Pick off a few key elements to destroy, and you wind up with a more "professionally destroyed" sound. I was in noise rock bands for a lot of years, and I always wanted the drums BIG, but frayed around the edges, not just plain old fucked up or crappy, ya know?

Dont "JUST record them," Make them sound HUGE and slightly broken. Give the illusion that the "studio couldnt handle the mayhem" they delivered.. ya know?

Have fun!

 

[treymonfauntre]

theres lots of stuff like this, and it almost always has bad recording quality. don't be afraid to not use the full spectrum of frequencies or add a little distortion or noise where it isn't necessary.