Need a good CD burner
- Thread starter crgman
- Start date
any stand-alone cd burner that you buy at circuit city for $200
will do great. i bought myne from there for $200 it had a digital input so, i just came out of my recorder(trough the digital out) into the cd burner's digital in. and it works just fine. oh! and one more thing it's a duel tray. so, i can make as many copys as i like.
go to circuit city and by you a cd burner for $200
it's your best bet.
zeke
will do great. i bought myne from there for $200 it had a digital input so, i just came out of my recorder(trough the digital out) into the cd burner's digital in. and it works just fine. oh! and one more thing it's a duel tray. so, i can make as many copys as i like.
go to circuit city and by you a cd burner for $200
it's your best bet.
zeke
sjjohnston
New member
SCMS
Here's the deal:
"Consumer" standalone CD players do two things (i) require "audio only" CDR disks and (ii) implement SCMS (the serial copy management scheme).
SCMS
Addressing the second point first, the way SCMS works is that a particular recording (each individual track on the CDR) is encoded either: "OK to copy," "1 copy only" or "No copies." When a CD recorder that implements SCMS records a track from a digital source, it looks at the code on the source track:
- if it's marked "No copies," it won't record it.
- if it's marked "1 copy only," it copies it, and marks the track it records "No copies"
- if it's marked "OK to copy," it copies it and marks the track it records "OK to copy."
If it records a track from an analog source it, of course, doesn't have any code, but -- now here's the tricky part -- it marks the track it records "1 copy only."
So ... if you use a consumer standalone to record analog signals, they'll all be marked "1 copy only." If you then make a digital duplicate and give it to a friend, all the tracks will be marked "No copies." He won't be able to copy them on a recorder that implements SCMS. He will, however, be able to make an analog copy e.g. by converting the digital to analog, then back to digital again. And he will be able to make copies with a non-SCMS CDR recorder or a computer.
Whether this matters to you depends on what you intend to do with the machine.
Audio only disks
Audio-only disks aren't materially different from any other CDR disk. They just have a code written on them that tells a consumer standalone recorder that the manufacturer has paid a fee to the an organization which represents the recording industry. A consumer standalone recorder will refuse to use the disk if it doesn't have this code written on it.
At one time, this was considered a big deal by some people. Nowadays, audio-only CDRs are selling for under a dollar a disk, so it would only matter if you're turning out a lot of disks.
Here's the deal:
"Consumer" standalone CD players do two things (i) require "audio only" CDR disks and (ii) implement SCMS (the serial copy management scheme).
SCMS
Addressing the second point first, the way SCMS works is that a particular recording (each individual track on the CDR) is encoded either: "OK to copy," "1 copy only" or "No copies." When a CD recorder that implements SCMS records a track from a digital source, it looks at the code on the source track:
- if it's marked "No copies," it won't record it.
- if it's marked "1 copy only," it copies it, and marks the track it records "No copies"
- if it's marked "OK to copy," it copies it and marks the track it records "OK to copy."
If it records a track from an analog source it, of course, doesn't have any code, but -- now here's the tricky part -- it marks the track it records "1 copy only."
So ... if you use a consumer standalone to record analog signals, they'll all be marked "1 copy only." If you then make a digital duplicate and give it to a friend, all the tracks will be marked "No copies." He won't be able to copy them on a recorder that implements SCMS. He will, however, be able to make an analog copy e.g. by converting the digital to analog, then back to digital again. And he will be able to make copies with a non-SCMS CDR recorder or a computer.
Whether this matters to you depends on what you intend to do with the machine.
Audio only disks
Audio-only disks aren't materially different from any other CDR disk. They just have a code written on them that tells a consumer standalone recorder that the manufacturer has paid a fee to the an organization which represents the recording industry. A consumer standalone recorder will refuse to use the disk if it doesn't have this code written on it.
At one time, this was considered a big deal by some people. Nowadays, audio-only CDRs are selling for under a dollar a disk, so it would only matter if you're turning out a lot of disks.
Wow- thanks guys!
OK- what I envision is the following:
Someone comes over to my home studio. Records a voice-over demo. I put it on CD for them. THEY take it and make their own duplicates along with whatever packaging they choose to do. They should be able to take that CD that I prepared for them and make as many copies as needed.
So- what now? Will the Computer City recorder work fine? What do I need to watch out for?
Thank you!
-c
OK- what I envision is the following:
Someone comes over to my home studio. Records a voice-over demo. I put it on CD for them. THEY take it and make their own duplicates along with whatever packaging they choose to do. They should be able to take that CD that I prepared for them and make as many copies as needed.
So- what now? Will the Computer City recorder work fine? What do I need to watch out for?
Thank you!
-c
Buck62
噛んでくれ
ZEKE SAYER said:
THIS IS BAD ADVICE!!!
IT'S 100% WRONG!
Commercial CD burners don't have the ability to do fades ("fade in" & "fade out").
Commercial CD burners don't have the ability to control the db level in the digital realm (they can only do it in analog-mode).
The meters on a commercial deck are PURE CRAP and totally inaccurate!!!!
THE CONVERTERS IN COMMERCIAL UNITS TOTALLY SUCK!!!
(...re-read this sentence again)
Commercial CD recorders do not "dither" a 24 bit recording down to 16 bits!
Commercial CD recorders "truncate" a 24 bit recording... tossing bits and making your recordings sound like POOP!!!
Also, you MUST use "audio-only" discs (as stated above) which are more costly than regular CDR discs.
I have both... a commercial CD recorder (Philips CDRW880) and a pro-quality unit (Tascam CDRW-700)
The Tascam unit is LIGHTYEARS ahead of the Philips unit in options and, most importantly, in sound quality.
The bottom line is this...
If you're doing recordings for fun only (...to impress friends and family), then a commercial unit would be okay.
If you're seriously trying to put out a "quality" sound recording, go with a pro-quality unit.
This is a classic case of "don't spend your money twice".
If you get a commercial-grade CD recorder you're gonna be pissed off at yourself in less than 2 months... I guarantee it.
what?
what? #1 you say it only records on audio disk....well what the hell is he whating to do?(make AUDIO cds!)
#2 and i know that stand alone don't have a fade in fade out freature but i'm not lazy. i don't mind doing the fade outs myself.
plus i read tht the fade outs(ins) cound only go for about 30sec......what if there is a song that need's a longer fade-out? the song hey-jude has a fade-out that goes for about 4min!!!
#3 the stand alone burners CAN burn DIGITAL cds. myne(that i paid $200 for has a sp/dil(digital in) input. so i just bought me a optimail(digital) cable at radio shack and hooked it up and it works great.
#4 i can make more copys then JUST ONE. i copyed my hole album on one and it worked great. (sold all the cds too)
#5 crgman, i'm not saying that these's guys advice is bad, infact,if you have the money i say you buy one. but it you don't want to spend 2-300bucks more just to get some little fade-in,fade-out mode then go ahead. all i no is, the stand alone cd burners will do the job. and they will do it good.(just don't buy anything with "phillips" wrote on it. i bought a cd burner from them and the damn thing never worked!)
good luck.
p.s. hey buck62, i've had my cd burner for almost 6 mouths!
(and i'm not pissed)
what? #1 you say it only records on audio disk....well what the hell is he whating to do?(make AUDIO cds!)
#2 and i know that stand alone don't have a fade in fade out freature but i'm not lazy. i don't mind doing the fade outs myself.
plus i read tht the fade outs(ins) cound only go for about 30sec......what if there is a song that need's a longer fade-out? the song hey-jude has a fade-out that goes for about 4min!!!
#3 the stand alone burners CAN burn DIGITAL cds. myne(that i paid $200 for has a sp/dil(digital in) input. so i just bought me a optimail(digital) cable at radio shack and hooked it up and it works great.
#4 i can make more copys then JUST ONE. i copyed my hole album on one and it worked great. (sold all the cds too)
#5 crgman, i'm not saying that these's guys advice is bad, infact,if you have the money i say you buy one. but it you don't want to spend 2-300bucks more just to get some little fade-in,fade-out mode then go ahead. all i no is, the stand alone cd burners will do the job. and they will do it good.(just don't buy anything with "phillips" wrote on it. i bought a cd burner from them and the damn thing never worked!)
good luck.
p.s. hey buck62, i've had my cd burner for almost 6 mouths!
(and i'm not pissed)
darrin_h2000
Banned
Then try this one on for size.
They have no hard drive to master to, the Audio only CDRs are 6 times as expensive and due to no HD you will make alot of those expensive CDRs into coasters along the way.
Oh yeah, No Mastering plug ins....etc....
They have no hard drive to master to, the Audio only CDRs are 6 times as expensive and due to no HD you will make alot of those expensive CDRs into coasters along the way.
Oh yeah, No Mastering plug ins....etc....
Buck62
噛んでくれ
Zeke...
Here's some MAJOR points I made that you didn't address...
1: The converters on a commercial deck suck when compared to a pro-quality unit.... that's undeniable and crucial to the final product.
2: A commercial deck cannot "dither" a 24-bit recording down to 16-bits... it truncates the recording. Do you even understand what that means? It means that bits get tossed and the recording loses a significant amount of clarity when it goes on disc. Why would you want to snuff the life out of your digital recordings like that?
3: The meters are extremely accurate on a "pro" deck, and the meters on a commercial deck are NOT. This is important when you're trying to get the recording to the proper level. (Red Book Standard)
4: Commercial decks don't have the ability to boost or cut the db level when recording straight in with S/PDIF cable. This can be necessary when you just can't get the levels high enough on the original source of the recording (...the stand-alone recorder). Sometimes you need to bring that level up with the CD recorder itself.
5: Digital fades are perfect, manual fades are not. There's been times where I did a GREAT manual-mix, only to screw up the manual-fade at the end of the song... that can be extremely frustrating.
Lastly...
To trash Philips reputation on CD recorders is rediculous, considering that Philips is the company that invented the Compact Disc and the CD recorder.
I never said that commercial CD recorders are bad, they're just not the proper tool for a studio. They serve a different purpose, that's all.
This isn't meant to down you, Zeke... it's just to educate you.
I'm assuming that you came to this website to learn how to make better recordings. You can't do that when you continue to defend un-educated advice.
Buck
Here's some MAJOR points I made that you didn't address...
1: The converters on a commercial deck suck when compared to a pro-quality unit.... that's undeniable and crucial to the final product.
2: A commercial deck cannot "dither" a 24-bit recording down to 16-bits... it truncates the recording. Do you even understand what that means? It means that bits get tossed and the recording loses a significant amount of clarity when it goes on disc. Why would you want to snuff the life out of your digital recordings like that?
3: The meters are extremely accurate on a "pro" deck, and the meters on a commercial deck are NOT. This is important when you're trying to get the recording to the proper level. (Red Book Standard)
4: Commercial decks don't have the ability to boost or cut the db level when recording straight in with S/PDIF cable. This can be necessary when you just can't get the levels high enough on the original source of the recording (...the stand-alone recorder). Sometimes you need to bring that level up with the CD recorder itself.
5: Digital fades are perfect, manual fades are not. There's been times where I did a GREAT manual-mix, only to screw up the manual-fade at the end of the song... that can be extremely frustrating.
Lastly...
To trash Philips reputation on CD recorders is rediculous, considering that Philips is the company that invented the Compact Disc and the CD recorder.
I never said that commercial CD recorders are bad, they're just not the proper tool for a studio. They serve a different purpose, that's all.
This isn't meant to down you, Zeke... it's just to educate you.
I'm assuming that you came to this website to learn how to make better recordings. You can't do that when you continue to defend un-educated advice.
Buck
i thanks you. i did indeed learn some new things from your post.
but tell me this...i have a pair of flat monitors that i use to hear my mix, and when i mix-down to cd it sounds the same on the system. and i myte add that my recorder has no data-compression so that helps to. but i'm just 14 and can come up with the money as easy as you guys can. in the future i intend to buy a higher grade cd-burner.
phillips made the cd? wow. did'nt see that one come'n. i have to admit there cd is a great invention(now they need to work on there exturnal cd-burners.
but tell me this...i have a pair of flat monitors that i use to hear my mix, and when i mix-down to cd it sounds the same on the system. and i myte add that my recorder has no data-compression so that helps to. but i'm just 14 and can come up with the money as easy as you guys can. in the future i intend to buy a higher grade cd-burner.
phillips made the cd? wow. did'nt see that one come'n. i have to admit there cd is a great invention(now they need to work on there exturnal cd-burners.
Now now, you two!
No spatting on my threads!!
Thanks for all the advice. I can see where you are both coming from. I am actually now looking at the Alesis Masterlink, although that is not quite in the budget. So an interim $200 consumer model may be the way to go right now.
BTW- do any of you have experience with the Masterlink? What do you think of it?
-c
No spatting on my threads!!
Thanks for all the advice. I can see where you are both coming from. I am actually now looking at the Alesis Masterlink, although that is not quite in the budget. So an interim $200 consumer model may be the way to go right now.
BTW- do any of you have experience with the Masterlink? What do you think of it?
-c
sjjohnston
New member
CD players
Just to note a few things, more for clarification than anything else (maybe in partial defense of Zeke):
Well ... maybe. I doubt that they're a lot different from a "prosumer," or at best "low end" pro, deck (which is I think where the Tascam unit would fall on the spectrum ... I don't mean this a slam: I like Tascam gear generally). They may well both use the same chip. If you want to get a real "pro" setup, you'd probably be using an outboard converter like an Apogee or something ... or if you're a cheap (clever?) pro, maybe a Symetrix 620.
I don't know that dithering is that big an issue. If you're running a digital input into the CD recorder, and what you're inputting has a higher word length, it makes a bit of difference. Of course, if that's what you're doing, you don't care about the AD converter in the CD recorder, which was point 1. Also, if that's what you're doing, there's a fairly good chance that whatever is producing the digital signal that you're running into the CD recorder (an outboard converter, perhaps?) will dither to 16 bits anyway.
On the other hand, if the suggestion is that a 16-bit converter that reads 24-bits, then dithers to 16 is better than a converter that just reads 16-bits, I suppose there's a marginal difference. This is really just a slightly more specific take on point 1, though.
Whether dithering adds "clarity" -- or failure to dither will "snuff out the life" of your recordings -- is perhaps debatable. After all, dithering is the addition of noise in exchange for some benefit in audibility of very low-level information.
I don't really know the accuracy of the various meters. You might be using meters on your mixdown deck, or whatever. I agree that meters are quite useful if you want to use as much resolution as you have without any digitals "overs." I'm not so sure the Red Book standard requires a particular level.
Actually, I think some Philips units do this, but I haven't actually used one, so I'm not sure. I'm not so sure I particularly see the huge value is raising the level of a digital input, at least when you're just duping a stereo track (and I definitely don't see the value of cutting it). You can't produce any more resolution -- nor increase the S/N ratio -- just by bumping up a digital signal.
On second thought, I guess boosting (and cutting) might be useful in doing some sort of quasi-mastering, so you can put together a series of cuts with matching levels. I don't think I'd do mastering with a consumer deck (or the Tascam CDR deck, either, for that matter).
I don't know how much I'd pay for a digital fader.
On the cost of CDR thing -- it's really shrunk to not much. I've seen Mitsui "audio-only" CDs in jewel boxes at 79 cents (minimum quantity 11). Actually, I just now looked at another source which is selling audio-only CDs on spindles (200) for 39 cents. You'd have to make a lot of CDs (a thousand?) to make up the price of a "pro" recorder.
I agree that a consumer CD player would probably not be something you'd want in a "studio" (if by studio, we mean an honest-to-good commercial facility). If you saw a standalone CD recorder there, it would most likely be a Masterlink, I guess. But it might well be something you'd want in a home recording setup, and "home recording" is at least in the title of this bulletin board. I'm not saying it would be right for everyone. It might well be wrong for the original poster (perhaps more because of SCMS more than the other stuff). But it would be a good choice for some people -- maybe a lot a people.
Two thoughts for the original poster:
- I haven't used a Masterlink myself, so what I think of them is worth about 2 cents at most, but I can note that the feature-set looks pretty nifty and some people who at least seem really to know what they're doing are using them. Apparently the mastering houses now have them, so they've sort of become one of the possible de facto standard formats for exchanging program material.
- A clever (perhaps too clever) two-step upgrade path might be to get the relatively cheap standalone now, then upgrade by getting a standalone converter at some point. If you can actually put your hands on one, a Symetrix 620 goes for an absurdly low price (like $200 or so). And it dithers! (From 20-bits to 16, anyway). And has cool meters! If you use an outboard converter, you're basically turning the standalone into just a drive (and, if your outboard is just a one-way analog->digital, like the Symetrix, a player). This eliminates the converter-quality issue, and also the SCMS issue.
Just to note a few things, more for clarification than anything else (maybe in partial defense of Zeke):
Buck62 said:
Well ... maybe. I doubt that they're a lot different from a "prosumer," or at best "low end" pro, deck (which is I think where the Tascam unit would fall on the spectrum ... I don't mean this a slam: I like Tascam gear generally). They may well both use the same chip. If you want to get a real "pro" setup, you'd probably be using an outboard converter like an Apogee or something ... or if you're a cheap (clever?) pro, maybe a Symetrix 620.
I don't know that dithering is that big an issue. If you're running a digital input into the CD recorder, and what you're inputting has a higher word length, it makes a bit of difference. Of course, if that's what you're doing, you don't care about the AD converter in the CD recorder, which was point 1. Also, if that's what you're doing, there's a fairly good chance that whatever is producing the digital signal that you're running into the CD recorder (an outboard converter, perhaps?) will dither to 16 bits anyway.
On the other hand, if the suggestion is that a 16-bit converter that reads 24-bits, then dithers to 16 is better than a converter that just reads 16-bits, I suppose there's a marginal difference. This is really just a slightly more specific take on point 1, though.
Whether dithering adds "clarity" -- or failure to dither will "snuff out the life" of your recordings -- is perhaps debatable. After all, dithering is the addition of noise in exchange for some benefit in audibility of very low-level information.
I don't really know the accuracy of the various meters. You might be using meters on your mixdown deck, or whatever. I agree that meters are quite useful if you want to use as much resolution as you have without any digitals "overs." I'm not so sure the Red Book standard requires a particular level.
Actually, I think some Philips units do this, but I haven't actually used one, so I'm not sure. I'm not so sure I particularly see the huge value is raising the level of a digital input, at least when you're just duping a stereo track (and I definitely don't see the value of cutting it). You can't produce any more resolution -- nor increase the S/N ratio -- just by bumping up a digital signal.
On second thought, I guess boosting (and cutting) might be useful in doing some sort of quasi-mastering, so you can put together a series of cuts with matching levels. I don't think I'd do mastering with a consumer deck (or the Tascam CDR deck, either, for that matter).
I don't know how much I'd pay for a digital fader.
On the cost of CDR thing -- it's really shrunk to not much. I've seen Mitsui "audio-only" CDs in jewel boxes at 79 cents (minimum quantity 11). Actually, I just now looked at another source which is selling audio-only CDs on spindles (200) for 39 cents. You'd have to make a lot of CDs (a thousand?) to make up the price of a "pro" recorder.
I agree that a consumer CD player would probably not be something you'd want in a "studio" (if by studio, we mean an honest-to-good commercial facility). If you saw a standalone CD recorder there, it would most likely be a Masterlink, I guess. But it might well be something you'd want in a home recording setup, and "home recording" is at least in the title of this bulletin board. I'm not saying it would be right for everyone. It might well be wrong for the original poster (perhaps more because of SCMS more than the other stuff). But it would be a good choice for some people -- maybe a lot a people.
Two thoughts for the original poster:
- I haven't used a Masterlink myself, so what I think of them is worth about 2 cents at most, but I can note that the feature-set looks pretty nifty and some people who at least seem really to know what they're doing are using them. Apparently the mastering houses now have them, so they've sort of become one of the possible de facto standard formats for exchanging program material.
- A clever (perhaps too clever) two-step upgrade path might be to get the relatively cheap standalone now, then upgrade by getting a standalone converter at some point. If you can actually put your hands on one, a Symetrix 620 goes for an absurdly low price (like $200 or so). And it dithers! (From 20-bits to 16, anyway). And has cool meters! If you use an outboard converter, you're basically turning the standalone into just a drive (and, if your outboard is just a one-way analog->digital, like the Symetrix, a player). This eliminates the converter-quality issue, and also the SCMS issue.
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Buck62
噛んでくれ
1: Not "maybe".... DEFINITELY! I can easily hear the difference.. and I have tinnitus.
2: I've mixed the same song to my Philips deck, and then the Tascam. The Tascam makes the recording sound much clearer because of it's dithering capabilities.
3: MisterQcue has the same two CD recorders as I do, and he will back me 100% on this about the meters. (..as well as everything else I'm saying)
4: No, the Philips units do NOT have this capability... I'm sure of it.
5: Digital fades are a GREAT option to have... especially for the reason I posted.
I'll tell you what, here's my MP3-dot-com page...
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/248/the_mac_brothers.html
The first and last songs ("Doin' Nothin" and "Angel Child") were mixed to my Tascam CDRW700.
All the other songs were mixed to my Philips deck.
Now tell me... can you hear the difference that dithering and better converters makes?
Oh, and the Philips-mixed songs were professionally mastered by a sound engineer who has done mixing for Aerosmith, Chicago, and Peter Gabriel.... just to name a few.
The two Tascam songs weren't mastered at all, they're straight from the unit itself.
Even though the Tascam is actually a "pro-sumer" deck (...I'll concede that point) the difference to my ears is staggering.
I believe it's worth it to spend the extra $300 to get closer to a professional-sounding mix/recording.
I'm just trying to save the lad from making the same mistakes that I made 3 years ago, that's all.
2: I've mixed the same song to my Philips deck, and then the Tascam. The Tascam makes the recording sound much clearer because of it's dithering capabilities.
3: MisterQcue has the same two CD recorders as I do, and he will back me 100% on this about the meters. (..as well as everything else I'm saying)
4: No, the Philips units do NOT have this capability... I'm sure of it.
5: Digital fades are a GREAT option to have... especially for the reason I posted.
I'll tell you what, here's my MP3-dot-com page...
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/248/the_mac_brothers.html
The first and last songs ("Doin' Nothin" and "Angel Child") were mixed to my Tascam CDRW700.
All the other songs were mixed to my Philips deck.
Now tell me... can you hear the difference that dithering and better converters makes?
Oh, and the Philips-mixed songs were professionally mastered by a sound engineer who has done mixing for Aerosmith, Chicago, and Peter Gabriel.... just to name a few.
The two Tascam songs weren't mastered at all, they're straight from the unit itself.
Even though the Tascam is actually a "pro-sumer" deck (...I'll concede that point) the difference to my ears is staggering.
I believe it's worth it to spend the extra $300 to get closer to a professional-sounding mix/recording.
I'm just trying to save the lad from making the same mistakes that I made 3 years ago, that's all.
darrin_h2000
Banned
My burner burns at 40 times the speed, and It only costed $80.00
darrin_h2000
Banned
master to HD first.
Clive Hugh
New member
Just to repeat the advice given me when I first joined this site and asked the same question
PLEXTOR, PLEXTOR oh, and did I mention PLEXTOR?
PLEXTOR, PLEXTOR oh, and did I mention PLEXTOR?