need 12-16 simultaneous tracks. What's the best system?

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ibleedburgundy

ibleedburgundy

The Anti-Lambo
I was looking at Pro Tools until I realized their product is a complete scam/money pit. They will tell you that you have 18 I/O but they will not tell you that for $3 grand you don't even have enough inputs to properly record a drum set.

I want to be able to record live bands as well as classical guitar at my home. Need at least 12 simultaneous tracks preferably 16. I know that's not how you do things in the computer age but I'm just an old-fashioned musician.

I used to use an ADAT but always needed more tracks and more possibilities and I have out grown it's sound quality. Oh yeah, and the stinking thing broke down and it never worked right because ALESIS refused to fix or replace it. I shipped it to them twice.

Anyhow, I've been trying to research what is the best program for me. It amazes me that folks can spend thousands of dollars on software and then it crashes. My buddy went to Full Sail and his Sonar program crashed after he recorded my band. CUBASE seems to be the cheapest program and with the Firepod provides 8 simultaneous inputs but I've heard cubase "crashes" and if that happens I'm gonna kill someone.

I need something reliable and I'm going to put it on a nice computer with 2 hard drives that has only one purpose: to record my music.

The best rig for my purposes I've seen so far was Nuendo program, running with a firepod, 2 Eureka's, something called a control station, and a MAC. I already have the PC. -But that only has 8 tracks. To add another 8 tracks would I simply add another firepod or would I need two more of the Eurekas? Or Worse?

I guess budget is important so I could spend upwards of 5K but I need to know that I have a complete package. Don't want a money pit.

Thanks in advance for any answers.
 
Motu 24-i/o ?

[EDIT] Did the forum just take away the capital letters? [/EDIT]
 
ibleedburgundy said:
I was looking at Pro Tools until I realized their product is a complete scam/money pit. They will tell you that you have 18 I/O but they will not tell you that for $3 grand you don't even have enough inputs to properly record a drum set.
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where did you get quoted 3 grand?? The cost of 002Rack costs 1200. That's cheaper than Nuendo 3. And how many mics do you use on a drum set? More than 18? Jesus, you must be recording Dave Weckl or something. And you said you needed "at least 12 simultaneous tracks preferably 16"...so how is the 002 not giving you enough?


but I've heard cubase "crashes" and if that happens I'm gonna kill someone.

I need something reliable and I'm going to put it on a nice computer with 2 hard drives that has only one purpose: to record my music.
Click to expand...

computers and software crash. welcome to the age of technology. I think I've probably crashed every program imaginable at one time or another. Internet Explorer, Logic, Nuendo, Pro Tools, Adobe Acrobat, Photoshop, Windows Media Player, Microsoft Word, Quicktime, Windows XP, AIM, ITunes, you name it. You'd probably better off just sticking with a cassette tape deck and a couple of preamps if you will be "killing" someone if your software crashes

My buddy went to Full Sail and his Sonar program crashed after he recorded my band.
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and what does this have to do with anything? why does him going to Full Sail crash his Sonar program? :confused: I heard Full Sail had some control on the recording industry, but jeez....crashing software programs? Now that's just gone too far!
:p
 
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You want a recording system that isn't a money pit?! That's almost an oxymoron...

Almost, but not quite. I have a 002, an ADAT XT-20 (with shot heads) for 8 channels of lighpipe I/O, some S/PDIF gear for the last 2, a 16 channel mixer, and some fun outboard gear- Voila. 18 channels I/O, digital or analog mixing with in-the-box automation. I'm really pleased with it- and it was much less than $5000 pieced together over time.

I don't see how $3000 wouldn't be able to get you a full 18 channels with a 002 rack. A 002r, a used ADAT LX-20, an Art DI/O or a cheap effects box with S/PDIF and a small mixer for pres would do the trick. But- that's it... no expandability from there.

There aren't many systems out there that offer you much more than 8 analog i/o so no matter what you get you'll need to spend extra for the hardware to get more i/o.

The trick to not crashing your audio apps is to have a computer that WORKS. Realtime audio puts a huge strain on your computer's resources and if anything is a little wonky... it crashes from time to time. When I use PC's I reboot them right before a session. I save and reboot if it starts acting funny. I have less problems with the Mac, but I still restart it fresh before an important session and save often. With these habits I haven't had any real problems with either of my computers and haven't lost any sessions.

Anyway- I don't know much about non-pro tools hardware these days, but I know there are some excellent options. RME and MOTU have excellent reputations. I haven't gone shopping for interfaces since I settled on Pro Tools so I'm afriad I can't help you any more than that.

Welcome aboard, by the way.

Take care,
Chris
 
i've had cubase "crash" on me about twice when i was playing with an old plugin i found online, each time it crashed it gave me time to save my project and then i restarted the program myself. i'm actually surprised at the stability, i've never ever lost my work and i've left it recording 8 tracks through adat for an hour and a half... and my computer is a stock emachines thats over a year and a half old and cost something like $300 new. i'm really surprised at how well it performs.
 
bennychico11 said:
where did you get quoted 3 grand?? The cost of 002Rack costs 1200. That's cheaper than Nuendo 3. And how many mics do you use on a drum set? More than 18? Jesus, you must be recording Dave Weckl or something. And you said you needed "at least 12 simultaneous tracks preferably 16"...so how is the 002 not giving you enough?

computers and software crash. welcome to the age of technology. I think I've probably crashed every program imaginable at one time or another. Internet Explorer, Logic, Nuendo, Pro Tools, Adobe Acrobat, Photoshop, Windows Media Player, Microsoft Word, Quicktime, Windows XP, AIM, ITunes, you name it. You'd probably better off just sticking with a cassette tape deck and a couple of preamps if you will be "killing" someone if your software crashes


and what does this have to do with anything? why does him going to Full Sail crash his Sonar program? :confused: I heard Full Sail had some control on the recording industry, but jeez....crashing software programs? Now that's just gone too far!
:p
Click to expand...


An 002 rack by itself has 4 preamps/inputs. I need 12-16 simultaneous and of course a bunch of plug-ins (back in my day we called them "effects"). What is the easiest way to expand it?

Clearly, I was kidding about killing someone but it boggles my mind that you could pay thousands of dollars for something that doesn't work. I've read in these forums about programs having a lower than 50% success rate. That is unacceptable. Much of the new terminology seems to be there to confuse the customer more than anything else. I will not settle for cassette nor will I settle for paying $3 K for something I can't count on if I take every precaution and follow every direction.

I was just saying that my friend's education at Full Sail did not pay off and if his and if he was not able to make Sonar perform with all his education there is something wrong.

I've noticed a lot of people getting ripped off and being complacent.

On the flip side programmers and salesman get all these programs for free and everyone on this forum is footing the bill.

Perhaps you would recommend the Korg D32XD which provides 16 simultaneous tracks on a hard drive but to suggest cassette is ridiculous.
 
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Chris Shaeffer said:
You want a recording system that isn't a money pit?! That's almost an oxymoron...

Almost, but not quite. I have a 002, an ADAT XT-20 (with shot heads) for 8 channels of lighpipe I/O, some S/PDIF gear for the last 2, a 16 channel mixer, and some fun outboard gear- Voila. 18 channels I/O, digital or analog mixing with in-the-box automation. I'm really pleased with it- and it was much less than $5000 pieced together over time.

I don't see how $3000 wouldn't be able to get you a full 18 channels with a 002 rack. A 002r, a used ADAT LX-20, an Art DI/O or a cheap effects box with S/PDIF and a small mixer for pres would do the trick. But- that's it... no expandability from there.

There aren't many systems out there that offer you much more than 8 analog i/o so no matter what you get you'll need to spend extra for the hardware to get more i/o.

The trick to not crashing your audio apps is to have a computer that WORKS. Realtime audio puts a huge strain on your computer's resources and if anything is a little wonky... it crashes from time to time. When I use PC's I reboot them right before a session. I save and reboot if it starts acting funny. I have less problems with the Mac, but I still restart it fresh before an important session and save often. With these habits I haven't had any real problems with either of my computers and haven't lost any sessions.

Anyway- I don't know much about non-pro tools hardware these days, but I know there are some excellent options. RME and MOTU have excellent reputations. I haven't gone shopping for interfaces since I settled on Pro Tools so I'm afriad I can't help you any more than that.

Welcome aboard, by the way.

Take care,
Chris
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Chris,

Thanks for the response.

I don't fully understand your system. How do you use the ADAT in conjunction with the 002? The ADAT only has eight channels so you can only do 8 simultaneous tracks, right? Or is there some way to link it up parallel to the 002 and have 12 simultaneous? Do you have a digital mixer? I have a mackie 1604 vlz but didn't think it would be prudent to run my signal through yet another analog source before going digital.
 
ibleedburgundy said:
An 002 rack by itself has 4 preamps/inputs. I need 12-16 simultaneous and of course a bunch of plug-ins (back in my day we called them "effects"). What is the easiest way to expand it?

Clearly, I was kidding about killing someone but it boggles my mind that you could pay thousands of dollars for something that doesn't work. I've read in these forums about programs having a lower than 50% success rate. That is unacceptable. Much of the new terminology seems to be there to confuse the customer more than anything else. I will not settle for cassette nor will I settle for paying $3 K for something I can't count on if I take every precaution and follow every direction.

I was just saying that my friend's education at Full Sail did not pay off and if his and if he was not able to make Sonar perform with all his education there is something wrong.

I've noticed a lot of people getting ripped off and being complacent.

On the flip side programmers and salesman get all these programs for free and everyone on this forum is footing the bill.

Perhaps you would recommend the Korg D32XD which provides 16 simultaneous tracks on a hard drive but to suggest cassette is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

the 002 racks has 4 preamps. you are correct on that. But it also has 4 more analog 1/4" inputs, an ADAT Lightpipe (which answers your question how Chris connected his ADAT to the unit) and 2 more channels via S/PDIF. That's a grand total of 18 channels simultaneously. I don't think there are any audio interfaces out there that provide you with 18 preamps. Not everyone wants all preamps on their units. How are you going to plug your line level devices into it? Or your digital devices? And even those who need that many preamps, don't want to use the stock preamps that come with the unit, they buy dedicated pres.

Everything breaks down. It's life man. Why spend $20,000 on a car if you have to keep changing the oil, changing the tires, fixing belts, replacing the water pump.....stuff breaks, you just live with it. Computers are even buggier than machines. You just have to treat them well and they will last longer. It's also important to read the specs on software before you buy it. Your friends Full Sail degree doesn't have anything to do with his ability to keep Sonar running. First of all, they don't even teach Sonar at Full Sail. It's not a program that is used very regularly in the professional world. Second, Sonar crashed on it's own accord...not because he couldn't keep it running.

The cassette recommendation was a sarcastic one. You seem very set on bashing recording programs and computer recording in general (although, have you ever used one regularly for recording?). Many many many people here and all over use these programs all the time for recording and they seem content. I use Pro Tools every day, and it works perfectly probably 363 out of 365 days a year. That's good enough in my book. I probably have more problems with the OS than I do with the software.
 
Massive Master said:
Motu 24-i/o ?

[EDIT] Did the forum just take away the capital letters? [/EDIT]
Click to expand...


Thanks for the response. I was looking at the MOTU 24-I/O and seems like a good fit for me but I was wondering about the software included. Audiodesk does not seem to be all that popular around here and I'm not sure what plug-ins would work. I am glad the MOTU works easily with external processors.

In your opinion what else would I need that I might not be thinking of? Which plug-ins are a must for vocals, drums, guitar, bass, classical guitar? I have microphones, cables, an analog mixer, and a killer blank-slate 2-hard drive computer (PC) that my brother built.

Wait a minute, does audiodesk only work on MAC? On MOTU.com they say "Unlimited audio tracks means AudioDesk is ready for as many tracks as your Macintosh will allow."
 
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ibleedburgundy said:
Chris,

Thanks for the response.

I don't fully understand your system. How do you use the ADAT in conjunction with the 002? The ADAT only has eight channels so you can only do 8 simultaneous tracks, right? Or is there some way to link it up parallel to the 002 and have 12 simultaneous? Do you have a digital mixer? I have a mackie 1604 vlz but didn't think it would be prudent to run my signal through yet another analog source before going digital.
Click to expand...

You're welcome.

Benny pretty much summed up how the system works. And no need to worry about running your signal through more analog sources before going digital- it *always* works that way. Every digital system has some type of analog front end.

No matter how you slice it your miced signal *must* go (at least): mic > preamp > convertor > computer. Line signals (keyboards, sound modules) sometimes don't need a preamp if they have enough output level control on them.

With the 002 (just my experience here, I'm not pushing it) there are 4 built in preamps which give you the whole deal in one package. The 4 other line ins don't have preamps so you have to supply your own- in this case your Mackie. I have a Soundtracs board that I use, and a couple other outboard pres for flavor.

I use an ADAT as an additional 8 convertors which go into the 002 and the computer digitally with an ADAT optical cable (lightpipe). I don't even put a tape in it. Since that ADAT also has no pres I need to supply my own for it- again with the Soundtracs mixer.

At this point I have 16 inputs (and outputs) that I can use at the same time. For 4 of them the 002 is preamp and convertor. For another 4 the board is the preamp and the 002 is the convertor. For the remaining 8 the board is the preamp and the ADAT is the convertor. Most audio interfaces with this much I/O and more work about the same way.

Most computer recordists DON'T want a device that has preamps on all of its inputs because then there is no way to bypass them with BETTER preamps. The preamps on my mixer kick the crap out of the pres on the 002. Some don't even like to use the built in convertors and prefer to use better ones via the ADAT optical i/o.

Anyway, I'm hoping to clarify that what you've been percieving as a money pit is actually designed to give you quite a bit of flexibility. It IS a money pit in that it requires more hardware to make use of it all, but is not a scam.

Take care,
Chris
 
Chris Shaeffer said:
You're welcome.

Benny pretty much summed up how the system works. And no need to worry about running your signal through more analog sources before going digital- it *always* works that way. Every digital system has some type of analog front end.

No matter how you slice it your miced signal *must* go (at least): mic > preamp > convertor > computer. Line signals (keyboards, sound modules) sometimes don't need a preamp if they have enough output level control on them.

With the 002 (just my experience here, I'm not pushing it) there are 4 built in preamps which give you the whole deal in one package. The 4 other line ins don't have preamps so you have to supply your own- in this case your Mackie. I have a Soundtracs board that I use, and a couple other outboard pres for flavor.

I use an ADAT as an additional 8 convertors which go into the 002 and the computer digitally with an ADAT optical cable (lightpipe). I don't even put a tape in it. Since that ADAT also has no pres I need to supply my own for it- again with the Soundtracs mixer.

At this point I have 16 inputs (and outputs) that I can use at the same time. For 4 of them the 002 is preamp and convertor. For another 4 the board is the preamp and the 002 is the convertor. For the remaining 8 the board is the preamp and the ADAT is the convertor. Most audio interfaces with this much I/O and more work about the same way.

Most computer recordists DON'T want a device that has preamps on all of its inputs because then there is no way to bypass them with BETTER preamps. The preamps on my mixer kick the crap out of the pres on the 002. Some don't even like to use the built in convertors and prefer to use better ones via the ADAT optical i/o.

Anyway, I'm hoping to clarify that what you've been percieving as a money pit is actually designed to give you quite a bit of flexibility. It IS a money pit in that it requires more hardware to make use of it all, but is not a scam.

Take care,
Chris
Click to expand...


Seems like the only thing I'm missing is the 002 and lightpipe.
 
that sucks that your friend went to full sail. i live by it (unless they've expanded past orlando) and its been a fucking joke for years. i feel bad for anybody that goes there.
 
treymonfauntre said:
that sucks that your friend went to full sail. i live by it (unless they've expanded past orlando) and its been a fucking joke for years. i feel bad for anybody that goes there.
Click to expand...

why?



x10 characters
 
Things to keep in mind to minimize (not eliminate, that's impossible) crashes.
1. Don't used cracked software. If it crashes, well.. you got what you paid for. Just pray it doesn't do other malicious things to your system.

2. Before you buy, comb all the information on the software manufacturer's website, specifically compatibility documents. There is no way for programmers to make programs work on EVERY computer, so they have to specify systems which they are guarateed to work on. If you have questions about the specs, call them. If you have questions about your computer, ask the manufacturer.

3. Do not use the computer for ANYTHING else. If you want to have a serious reliable recording system, then you really shouldn't be running anything but the DAW and audio programs. That means no internet, and minimum background processes (including in some cases disabling virus protection). The more stuff you have running, the more opportunities for conflicts. Again, programmers can't make sure their programs will work with every single combination of applications running. They can only make sure their's doesn't interfere with others and hope every other software does the same.

4. Use a dedicated audio drive. Streaming audio off a drive leaves little left for system read/writes. Running a dedicated drive (7200RPM min) on the secondary channel will avoid these conflicts.

5. Keep detailed notes on what you change to the system and when. Have enough detail that if push comes to shove you can do a flat out reinstall without losing anything.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head but there's probably a lot more.
 
bennychico11 said:
why?
Click to expand...

Here's my vicarious experience of it:

A buddy of mine also went to Full Sail. He knew what he was doing, though: paying for the opportunity to make contacts.

Its a good enough school as far as their curriculum goes, they just HYPE the crap out of it like it is some rock star experience. They also boasted of a 100% placement rate. "Yes! You WILL get a job with the skills you learn at Full Sail!!" In other words, if you are "placed" in a widget factory soldering they consider it a successful placement because they teach soldering at the school...

What they teach isn't really a joke and its a great opportunity to make contacts in the business, but within the business its kind of a joke. My buddy didn't finish- He got most of the way through then accepted a job as an assistant at a private studio owned by a guy who knew everyone and did some work for the majors. He spent 2-3 years there, made his own contacts, learned the studio inside and out... and got plenty of opportunities to prove what he could do.

Then he struck out on his own and has been very successful. Not because of Full Sail, but because he's a good business man and has a great ear. Full Sail showed him where the door was- the rest of getting his foot IN the door and beyond was his own effort.

Take care,
Chris
 
I use a HD24. Twenty-four simultainious ins and outs, great converters and best of all, STABLE. And used with an analog console it's extremely intuitive to use and set up monitor mixes for impatient musicians. No fighting a mouse or software.
 
Chris Shaeffer said:
Here's my vicarious experience of it:

A buddy of mine also went to Full Sail. He knew what he was doing, though: paying for the opportunity to make contacts.

Its a good enough school as far as their curriculum goes, they just HYPE the crap out of it like it is some rock star experience. They also boasted of a 100% placement rate. "Yes! You WILL get a job with the skills you learn at Full Sail!!" In other words, if you are "placed" in a widget factory soldering they consider it a successful placement because they teach soldering at the school...

What they teach isn't really a joke and its a great opportunity to make contacts in the business, but within the business its kind of a joke. My buddy didn't finish- He got most of the way through then accepted a job as an assistant at a private studio owned by a guy who knew everyone and did some work for the majors. He spent 2-3 years there, made his own contacts, learned the studio inside and out... and got plenty of opportunities to prove what he could do.

Then he struck out on his own and has been very successful. Not because of Full Sail, but because he's a good business man and has a great ear. Full Sail showed him where the door was- the rest of getting his foot IN the door and beyond was his own effort.

Take care,
Chris
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Thank you Chris.
As always, a very well explained response

Any school that is like or unlike Full Sail is what you make of it. The "industry" has a hard time accepting that recording schools are getting bigger and young people are flocking to them in hopes of learning something. I think a lot of the veterans in the industry are thinking "Well, I didn't go to school to learn it...so going to school to learn recording is a fucking joke." As long as you learn it correctly, does it matter where you learn how to record? The truth is Full Sail has some of the most amazing equipment that many people in the industry and on this board will never be able to see or use.

Anyway, this is off topic. I just can't stand when people bash Full Sail or other audio schools...especially if they've never been there and base their opinion on it from what other people are saying.
 
Can any of you guys recommend a bundle I can use with Pro tools? I have almost zero experience with all this Joe Meek/moogerfooger stuff. What are the essentials?
 
bennychico11 said:
Thank you Chris.
As always, a very well explained response

Any school that is like or unlike Full Sail is what you make of it. The "industry" has a hard time accepting that recording schools are getting bigger and young people are flocking to them in hopes of learning something. I think a lot of the veterans in the industry are thinking "Well, I didn't go to school to learn it...so going to school to learn recording is a fucking joke." As long as you learn it correctly, does it matter where you learn how to record? The truth is Full Sail has some of the most amazing equipment that many people in the industry and on this board will never be able to see or use.

Anyway, this is off topic. I just can't stand when people bash Full Sail or other audio schools...especially if they've never been there and base their opinion on it from what other people are saying.
Click to expand...

I'm a few months away from graduating from a recording school, and almost Digidesign PT certified in post and music (maybe will go onto the 300 level expert certification in the future, I'll give that a few years).

The school I go to made no false hype about my job outlook. They flat out told me within 10 minutes of my first meeting with an admissions rep that if I wanted to be successful, I'd have to do it for myself. They will help me for as long as needed to try and find a job, but its up to me to make it happen. They arn't blowing sunshine up our asses.

The school is honest, has 9 on site professional studios that are for our use only, a great lab staff keeping things running, and pro instructors that have engineered/produced numerous platnum albums (and still do aside from teaching a few classes during the day).

Sure I could have learned all of that on my own, but I don't have the money or resources to do it. I'm being trained by some of the best in the industry (people who take the time to show you exactly what they know, and how to apply it), along with using some of the best gear (Trident large format, SSL E and G series, Digidesign D-Command and D-Control, great outboard gear, many different DAWs like Pro Tools 6.9-soon to be 7-/Logic Pro 7.1/Digital Performer/Reason 3/Ableton Live and so on). I've also met some great contacts/current clients, and I'm already well on my way to starting my own business, and I'm months from graduation. (on a side note, clients like to see degrees and certifications)

I get to play in full studios almost everyday during class, and after class if I book time. I feel comfortable walking into new studios, and can be up and running with unfamiliar gear after a little bit of playing. If I had not gone to school, I'd be a fish out of water in a professional enviroment.
 
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