My preamp dilema

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Slackmaster2K

Slackmaster2K

Gone
Just the facts ma'am:

1) I dislike the pseudo-tube sound of the ART Tube MP and similar products.

2) Like many people I have a family that comes first, and I feel that it is necessary to get the most out of the small amounts of cash I can scrape up.

3) I have ideas that need to come out very soon. Saving up for a year is a possibility, but i need something to tide me over.

4) I need a minimum of two but preferably FOUR microphone preamps. I would like to experiment with some stereo mic'ing techniques, and I am also now babysitting a friends drum kit indefinately, so recording it will require at least 3-4 pres methinks. I am well aware of the benefits of a super high quality microphone preamp. I am well aware that I cannot afford this quality. I want a) QUIET b) as little coloration of the sound as possible c) something that doesn't sound *obviously* horrible, you know what i mean.

5) I have 4in/4out soundcard and record/mix on the PC.

6) Sometimes when I'm tracking I have troubles because I can't hear the instrument I'm tracking very well in the cans. I would like some sort of mixing capabilites for tracking (recording would still be direct). In other words, I want to take the mix that i'm tracking on top of into a mixer on one stereo channel, then take a direct out on my soundcard for the instrument I'm tracking into a mono channel on the mixer, and voila, I can control the level of the instrument against the mix while tracking. That's the plan anyhow. In other words, I want mixing capabilities, but not for recording.



So, I've decided, perhaps prematurely, that a small mixer like the Mackie 1202 VLZ is what I'm looking for. The infamous Scott Dorsey claims that the 1202 has usable pres, so that's what I'm after.

Except, the 1202VLZ is $379 new, and I'm not looking to fight for a used one on ebay or any place else. These suckers move fast and they sell used for well over $200, sometimes up to $300. I would like to consider some cheaper alternatives (noting that $379 is cheap for everyone who wants to point that out). A good friend mentioned that the old school 1202 is also a decent enough little mixer, it just has less headroom, but will work if I don't push the pres too hard. This might be a solution because a used 1202 can be had for about $150 and they're not very desirable compared to the VLZ models.

I found the Soundcraft Notepad which looked great for a little while. Soundcraft is a respectable name, and the unit has 4 mic pres and runs at about $199. HOWEVER, there are no channel inserts, so there's no way to use the pres individually (well, two at a time I guess). That won't work.

Now a few minutes ago I stumbled upon these little NADY mixers that are real real cheap. I'm looking at the SRM-14X which has 6 mono inputs/mic preamps, pre-everything channel inserts on all 6 mono inputs, faders instead of knobs, and all the expected regular features of mixers in this class. It sells for a suprising $199. HOWEVER, I can't find shit about NADY mixers on deja....and I mean NOTHING. Mr.QQ here has sort of recommended them, but I'm not sure if he's owned one or not. Has anyone used a NADY mixer before? If so, how were the pres?

I am not looking to buy Behringer.

Finally, it might be possible to get some standalone pres and a cheap little tiny mixer seperately. I damn near bid on some Rane pres on ebay the other day that were going for about $50 a channel. Something like that might be doable. Maybe symetrix? Don't see many used symetrix pres though.

Any advice would be appreciated on this entire matter!

Slackmaster 2000
 
The Davisound TB-6 has 4 pres for $650.

http://www.davisound.com

From the website:

TB-6 "DaviSource MIC-ALL Microphone Amplifiers"- are offered as a package of overload-proof, variable gain mic preamps which provide pure, transparent, noiseless, distortionless (<.008% combined!) electronically balanced amplification.

It's easy to make claims, and everyone claims their mic amps are the best for this or that reason.

But, in this case ... NO idle boasting ...
EVERY pro user ... REPEAT... ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION ... swear by this circuitry as the BEST mic amp they have ever used ... Period!

That's probably because our design is based on an overload-proof, continuously-variable gain amplifier using very MINIMAL active components in the signal path.


Naturally, these amps are designed around our new, state-of-the-art house IC op-amp for extended headroom and dynamic range far exceeding today's digital standards!
(This IC is described elsewhere-see our "Design Philosophy" page)

It accepts virtually ANY low to medium impedance pro quality microphone and provides PURE, TRANSPARENT, NOISELESS/DISTORTIONLESS (less than .008% combined), electronically balanced (differential) amplification.

For those of you who agree that ...
The mic preamp is NOT the place to "color" your sound ...
The TB-6 will allow you to hear EXACTLY what your microphones reproduce... possibly for the first time ever!

Each channel is fully isolated with SEPARATE phantom power switching for each individual channel. All connections are rear mount XLR. (front panel mount connectors are available as an option).

By popular request, as of June 2001, all TB-6 Tool Boxes now include a phase reverse switch on each channel!


Other front panel controls feature a FULLY VARIABLE ACTIVE gain control for each amp - NO PADDING NECESSARY - we PIONEERED THIS FEATURE back in the '70s. It allows you to continuously dial in just the right amount of amplifier gain exactly as you need it, no more no less.

This feature offers you precisely the correct amount of gain with optimum headroom, signal to noise and dynamic range at ANY setting!

In addition to the individual phantom switches, a MASTER phantom power switch and LED indicator are provided along with the usual AC power on/off toggle and indicator.

The TB-6 is produced with FOUR channels of Mic-All amplifiers per unit.

PEFORMANCE-

ALL amplifiers feature ruler flat frequency response from approximately 5 HZ to about 35 KHZ (maximum gains) with a slightly variable HF bandwidth increase as gain is actively decreased to unity or below ( flat to 60KHz at unity).

An active filtering feedback configuration is employed to intentionally rolloff extreme high frequency response to minimize out of band interference, noise contribution, and intermodulation distortions.

DaviSound MIC-ALL amplifiers are TRANSFORMERLESS and, as such, have UNWEIGHTED, ACTUAL theoretical input VOLTAGE noise levels that exceed transformer designs somewhat. However, these levels are only theoretical since any UNWEIGHTED noise measurement of ANY PHANTOM POWERED microphone amp reveals the noise contribution of the phantom power network resistors (in our case these are lowest noise, 1% metal film, balanced divider nets) as the dominating noise source as opposed to actual amplifier internal noise.

DISTORTION specifications are where the DaviSound "MIC-ALL" amplifiers REALLY outperform most all others! There is virtually NO measurable distortion at any level or frequency until maximum gain settings are utilized. Even then, the measurements are near the residuals of the test instruments and barely detectable at the frequency extremes (.008% at 20 KHZ, +50dB gain)!

This performance characteristic is responsible for claim after claim from virtually ALL users that our amp is the "cleanest" they have ever heard!

One of the most crucial parameters in microphone signal handling is HEADROOM. The MIC-ALL amps are relatively unsurpassed in this regard with signal handling capability right up near +32 dBV before clipping! We acheive this with our House IC and thermal protection which allows a much higher power supply voltage than most conventional designs. This provides a full 8 to 10 dB more headroom than most other professional designs on the market today!

I want one.
 
ditto yikes!
Slack, I echo your comments about Mackie VLZ pres being about the cheapest transparent ones around.But the previous series Mackie made before don't have near the reputation the VLZ pres do.E-Bay has em and try Daddy's Junky Music also.
Tom
 
Well I may have just come across a few dual SX202 units for a very reasonable price. This may be the answer for me.

Tom: yeah from everything I've read so far it would be stupid for me to spend 200 bucks on some other unit when I can score a 1202VLZ for not much more.

Anyone using Rane preamps? I saw a couple MS-1 units go recently at very reasonable rates.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Slack, i posted in the cave about Northen whoever selling the Spirit for $159....
 
I like how you have narrowed your price range down to $200, you state clearly that you don't want to spend the $300 for a used 1202 VLZ pro, and then someone comes along and immediately posts a $650 option. Way to pay attention to the original post!!

If I were in your shoes, I would go for the 1202 VLZ pro, because of the sound and the flexibility, and if that was absolutely a no-go pricewise, the 1202, although you will take a hit in sound quality, and I would advise you never to use the HI EQ on a 1202, it rends my soul whenever I hear it.
 
Yikes

I seem to be getting into trouble here lately.:cool:

That post was pretty goofy. You'd think I work for them.

Actually, Weston Ray (aka Recording Engineer) has three of the Davisound pieces, the TB-1, the TB-3, and Reference amp, and he swears by the Davisound stuff. And we all know how particular RE is about his gear. He now has a custom Davisound console on order--selling his Trident MTA 924 console.

On RE's recommendation, alone, I would buy a Davisound piece.

The wood has its advantages. You can read about it on the website.
 
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Id recommend that preamp to based on clips I heard from RE (his brother singing thru a TLM103 into the DS)......but I also know what $50/channel means......but we still luv ya......
 
Midiman Audio Buddy $89 (2 channels)
Delta DMP2 $179 (2 channels)
 
See,

I guess the way I see it, we all know 2 or 300 bucks don't buy a whole lot of 4 channel preamp. A lot of people dog Mackie stuff but I don't know...I think they do a lot for the dough.

I've used a 1402 for years now for my band practice PA and demo recording (currently upgrading to 8 buss) and I don't see how anything in that price range could possibly beat it!

The pres are clean and well balanced sounding, you get inserts, they're built like tanks (I've straight up dropped mine a few times) and the EQ...well its...useable. My advice on the EQ is spend a little more time properly micing for the sound you want and do more cutting than boosting...which is really what most of us would say about EQing in general, right?;)

Yeah, that's my big fat opinion...
 
1202 VLZ PRO

Hey Slack, don't know where you're at in your thinking about this now, but I managed to score a used 1202 VLZ Pro on ebay yesterday for under $300 (inc. shipping) so I'll let you know what I think about it when it comes in.

I've been watching them for a few days, and there are deals out there under $300 on ebay. You can also check out a new site I found: www.prepal.com.

-Niels
 
1202

The new Mackie pres are pretty nice. At least there is a big difference between them and the Blue Tube pre I'd been using. The Blue Tube is great for Bass DI but the Mackie sounds pretty durn good on vocals.

I'll probably post something done with the Mackie in a bout a week.

Some people would tell you to take out a second mortgage to get decent pres, something you will keep for a lifetime... Well good stuff breaks and gitz stolen too... Who am I to say???

And that's not what it's about. Get the best you can afford and don't sweat it. Afford is the key word. There are more important things in life than mic pres. Those Symettrix pres are just fine, comparable to the Mackies.

Then make some fucking music. Keeping ideas corked waiting for the perfect mic, the perfect pre.. is a dangerous proposition.

-Jett
 
Hey Slack, you might not like my idea - but why not look into the Fostex VM 88 digital mixer? I owned a 1604 VLZ Pro thinking I would be using all of the I/O, but I never did - just too much board for my work. The preamps sounded good, but nothing to cream over. So, I sold it. I just recently bought a Fostex VM 88 from Musician's Friend. 4 pre's w/ inserts, 2 stereo line channels, 2 effects engines that sound GOOD - eight channels ADAT I/O or 2 s/pdif optical - 20 scene memory/recall. MASSIVE flexibility and routing options. All for just $279. I can't believe more people around here haven't gone this route. Read the reviews on the net. It's a good deal. The pre's don't have as much headroom as the Mackie, but they are crystal clear and more than usable. Cheap AND good... just something to think about.
Happy Turkey week.
 
Hey Slack, good call on the 202... I doubt alot of people here know about them, since they have been discontinued for the lesser sounding 303. If you have access to them for $200 or less, you will be making a better-than-Mackie call. They pop up on ebay sometimes, and occasionally can get up there in price. For the money, your best bet. Dont forget the RNMP will be rolling out in 2 weeks
 
Re: VM88

The Fostex unit looks interesting, but we don't know about Slack's sound card, do we? The VM88 only has S/PDIF Digital Out, and it's Lightpipe at that, so even if he has a card that supports S/PDIF, he'll need an LP converter, so there's more dough.

Of course, the VM88 could be just what he needs if he's got Lightpipe in on his card.

BTW, is ADAT Lightpipe the same as standard S/PDIF optical lightpipe? If so an M-Audio Co2 converter is MSRP $80.

I'd have considered the VM88 myself if it had MIDI out capability for mixing ...

-Niels
 
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