My overhead choices......Thoughts?

[Dogbreath]

Currently, I'm using the Recorderman method with a pair of Shure KSM 109's on OH.

I'm thinking of trying the Glen Johns method using a pair of SP B1's cuz I heard you need LDC's for Glens method to work better and the B1's are the only pair of LDC's I have.

My other's are one AT4050. one Cad E200 and a V67G.

The reason I want to try Glens method is I've read you get better toms in the mics than the Recorderman.

Whatta ya think?

B1's?
A mix of the other LDC's?
Or just close mic the toms...?

Much thanks gentlemen.....(and you too Greg )

 

[RAMI]

Currently, I'm using the Recorderman method with a pair of Shure KSM 109's on OH.

I'm thinking of trying the Glen Johns method using a pair of SP B1's cuz I heard you need LDC's for Glens method to work better and the B1's are the only pair of LDC's I have.

My other's are one AT4050. one Cad E200 and a V67G.

The reason I want to try Glens method is I've read you get better toms in the mics than the Recorderman.

Whatta ya think?

B1's?
A mix of the other LDC's?
Or just close mic the toms...?

Much thanks gentlemen.....(and you too Greg )

Hehe...First of all it's "Glyn".

I used the Recordermen for a long time, and then went GLYN. Now, I use a hybrid of both. To be honest, there's not a huge diff between the 2. Not enough, I don't think to require different mics for one to work better than the other. Just speaking for my own experiences.

 

[Dogbreath]

Hehe...First of all it's "Glyn".

I used the Recordermen for a long time, and then went GLYN. Now, I use a hybrid of both. To be honest, there's not a huge diff between the 2. Not enough, I don't think to require different mics for one to work better than the other. Just speaking for my own experiences.

errr...uh.....yeah.... I said Glyn...

My drums actually sound pretty good now but would like a bit more toms so maybe just close miking, eh?

And what's the hybrid you figured out?

Inquiring minds etc......

 

[Dogbreath]

I was just over at your site and checking out the "Drum Tracks" you put together.

Sounds great man!

Are they from your hybrid setup?

If so, it's working.

 

[dgatwood]

I was going to suggest placement changes, but now that I look at the response curve of those Shure mics, I think I understand why you're having problems. Those are fairly bright mics with a lot of bass roll-off, both of which are potential problems for overhead use.

I'm a real fan of a pair of Oktava MK-012 mics for overheads. Before I got those, I hated my drum recordings---poor stereo separation, weak toms, harsh cymbals, etc. Got a second MK-012 (not even a matched pair) and it was a million times better. They're just really well suited to overhead use, IMHO. They have a little high end roll off that tames the cymbals and a little low end roll off that tames the kick. Use those together with a decent kick mic and you're in good shape right off the bat. If you can add some cheap dynamics as close mics on the toms and snare, you'll be even happier, of course.

BTW, the Glyn Johns technique requires four mics, and a number of folks actually suggest ribbons for the overheads rather than condensers. YMMV. Can't say I've ever tried that technique. I'm more of an X/Y overhead kind of guy, personally.

 

[LemonTree]

I use the SP B1's in x/y with an RE20 in the kick and a 57 on the snare and I get great results.

Sometimes I'll make a few copies of the OHs and process them differently to bring out the toms and the snare snap but they sit pretty well in the mix with just 4 tracks and no processing. YMMV

 

[RAMI]

And what's the hybrid you figured out?

Inquiring minds etc......

I have the second mic about halfway between my shoulder and the floor tom.

Like, gdatwood said, it requires 4 mics. I thought they both did, but I might be wrong. Either way, I used 4 mics when doing Recorderman and Glyn Johns, and now with my "hybrid", I still use 4 mics.

 

[RAMI]

Sometimes I'll make a few copies of the OHs and process them differently to bring out the toms

Yes! I might have even got that idea from you. I stole it from someone here. Last few tunes I did, I copied the overhead tracks to 2 new tracks, deleted everything but the toms, and basically had a " Stereo Tom track". It's as close to closed-micing as you can get without close-micing.

 

[Dogbreath]

Most excellent gentlemen.

As to the MK012's...I'm always lookin to add to my meager arsenal (g.a.s. etc) so since Christmas is coming.......hmmmmm.

I've been using 4 mics ever since I first read about "getting a great sound with 3 mics". It just made sense to mic the snare too. More control.....

Weird that you guys mentioned copying the OH's to a different track. I've been doing that for awhile now too but figured I was cheating and should be getting it "right" at the source. Now that I know you seasoned pro type dudes are doing it, I don't feel bad about it.

When you process the OH's, what do you do? I've been taking just the tom fills, compressing them a bit, nudging them a bit so they're not exactly in the same time space, and fill in just a skosh of bottom and top end in the EQ. I was never real sure if I was causing phase issues or something (nudging the tracks) that would mess with the ME when I send it to him.

And Rami....no problem mang...

 

[Dogbreath]

I just did a couple of searches for the MK012's and am a bit surprised that there just aren't many out there. Very few in fact.

I did find one review that said the MXL 604 was "exactly" the same as the 012.

I have my doubts but the 604's are a lot easier to find. And since I get g.a.s pretty easy , I wonder what you guys think?

 

[LemonTree]

Yeah you can do a few things with the OH's. I think the hardest thing tracking a session is getting the height right to match the drummer's playing and keep the cymbals/toms at a nice balance...good drummers you don't need to worry about so much but they only come along once in a blue moon...right?

room mics without a room mic.... really squashing the OH's with a slow release and mixing that back in underneath can mask a bad sounding room and make it sound like you had a room mic or two up while tracking.

Tom hits... yeah I usualy mute out what isn't needed and tweak the rest. I've even seen me cut tom fills up and put each tom on a seperate track and have them trigger hits in drumagog to blend in with what's already there, although that's a practice I've rarely used thank god.

As long as you're having fun with it and it sounds good there's not a lot you can do wrong.

 

[Dogbreath]

Some cool ideas there, boss.

I know what ya mean about matching the OH height to drummers etc...And that's what's cool about my situation. I started playing drums at the same time I was learning how to mike em. So I just adjusted my playing to the mics.

Is that kinda back-asswards or what?

Maybe I can get some clips posted this weekend and see what you guys think.

Grassy-ass mang...

Kel

 

[dgatwood]

I did find one review that said the MXL 604 was "exactly" the same as the 012.

The 604 has a pretty significant high frequency boost, and IIRC the cardioid capsule (same as the 603) has almost no low end at all. Having attempted to use similar mics with similar characteristics as overheads, the word "terrible" comes to mind. They're great for overly boomy guitars, apparently, but overheads... not so much.

 

[Dogbreath]

Cool.

I had my doubts but good to hear confirmation.

I still have g.a.s. though.....