My head hurts

E

Elton Bear

Unregistered Abuser
So, I've been on the forum for a while now, and I've been tinkering with recording - probably not as much as I should but it's keeping me interested.

I understand the idea of getting your best sound at source, I've got a pretty good idea of where instruments sit in the frequency range, what mics to use where, the difference in SPL between a flute and a Bass cab, etc. etc.

However, when you guys start talking about physics and dB, dBFS, etc. my little brain gets very confused :eek:

I don't need it all explaining to me because I could go and read a billion books to get a better understanding, but do I really need a deeper understanding of physics in sound recording to obtain better results in my recordings and mixes?
 
Elton Bear said:
However, when you guys start talking about physics and dB, dBFS, etc. my little brain gets very confused :eek:

I don't need it all explaining to me because I could go and read a billion books to get a better understanding, but do I really need a deeper understanding of physics in sound recording to obtain better results in my recordings and mixes?
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I can understand where you're coming from, Elton. No, it's not required, but like in any other subject, the more you know, the more you know. You know? :D.

One may not need to understand the physics behind the numbers (though it can often help), BUT it *is* important for good engineering to understand the numbers themselves. If you don't understand the difference between 0dBVU, 0dBu, 0dBV and 0dBFS - yes they are all different values - then when someone says you need to have this widget at such and such a value, you'll have no idea what actual value he means. And that *does* make a difference. Undertanding the relationship betweem BPM and time in milliseconds can really help in dialing in reverb and delay settings much faster and more efficiently that trial-by-ear can. And so forth.

Is this technical knowledge necessary? Sometimes not. Sometimes more than others. Sometimes just understanding the "why" of one thing, makes understanding the "what" of a dozen other things just fall into place and answers a dozen questions before they are even asked.

What makes things in this "home recording' realm so difficult for so many people isthat it lies at a very unnatural and dangerous intersection: the corner of Musician St. And Engineering Dr. Most musicians tend more to the creative side of the brain (not counting the musical genius prodegies for which everything is just a math equation :rolleyes:), where as audio engineering, while still a creative art, does require more of the technical/analytical side of the brain.

One can be a great interior designer and landscaper, but if they want to design the actual house so that it won't fall down, they had better learn some structural engineering.

There are some who are lucky enough to be mentally ambidexterous, and make great musician/engineers. But the harsh reality is that some of the best musicians can make some of the lousiest engineers, and vice versa. They are are on differet sides of the glass in more ways than one.

G.
 
Elton Bear said:
I don't need it all explaining to me because I could go and read a billion books to get a better understanding, but do I really need a deeper understanding of physics in sound recording to obtain better results in my recordings and mixes?
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There's an old saying:
"The more you know, the more you know you don't know."

IMHO, the more you expand your horizons the better you'll see and understand what you are looking at and that will result in better recordings and mixes.

Knowing what you are doing (not just how to do it) will add self respect, pride and personal enjoyment to the mix which is pretty important to achieve longevity in the field. What you have been doing so far, e.g. gaining experience, is an important part of the process too but only part of the picture.
 
At the end of the day, I'm a musician who wants to go into a studio where someone else is engineering/producing, do exactly what is expected of me, and leave. Recording the odd demo for purposes of free distribution at gigs, press, etc. is as far as I want to take the engineering route, which as Glen says, is a different field entirely.
I'm not looking to make any money recording other people for a living, although it would be nice.

As for the idea that "The more you know, the more you know you don't know.", that's one of the reasons I'd rather not get into physics as I'll end up diving head-first into what is a very deep and intellectual subject, and I fear that my progress as a musician and "creative" artist may be compromised...

I like the analogy of an interior designer vs. structural engineer; maybe that exemplifies how my brain prefers to work in practice rather than theory...
 
It's definately helpful to understand the basics of sound and electronics. You don't have to memorize the formulas but understanding how everything works together can go a long way.
 
Benyah said:
What is the difference between 0dBVU, 0dBu, 0dBV and 0dBFS?
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Check out www.independentrecording.net and click on "Metering and Gain Structure" in the Online Resources column. The section on metering goes into all that in some detail. Ibuprofen not included.

Elton Bear said:
At the end of the day, I'm a musician who wants to go into a studio where someone else is engineering/producing, do exactly what is expected of me, and leave.
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Which is exactly the typical producer/engineer wants from the musician. So you're off to a great start there.

Just concentrate on your playing skills and musicianship. Learn alternate tunings, how to transpose keys at will, know how to play a given root chord several different ways, and how to play something with consistency of accuracy and style over not only several bars, but several takes. And learn the musical lingo - both technical and colloquial - so that when the producer says it needs to sound more "ootzie" and less allegro leading into the 7th measure, you have as good of a clue as to what that bozo actually means as possible :rolleyes:.

Leave the engineering to the engineers. You don't need all the deep stuff to do the amateur recording stuff you're talking about and still sound adequate to the task. BUT: The nanosecond you come on here or elsewhere and ask anything even closely related to the question, "How do I get my recordings/mixes to sound like the pros/a commercial CD?", all rules on what you may or may not need to know go straight out the window. You want to do a pro-quality result on any kind of predictable basis, you're gonna have to learn something you'll find unenjoyable to learn soon and often.

G.
 
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SouthSIDE Glen said:
Learn alternate tunings, how to transpose keys at will, know how to play a given root chord several different ways, and how to play something with consistency of accuracy and style over not only several bars, but several takes.
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Oh, sorry, did I say musician?! :eek: I meant drummer :)

Thanks for clearing it up though guys, maybe I will do a bit more homework in future; I'm under no illusions that I'm going to create the next no.1 album from my laptop though, so no worries there!
 
Elton Bear said:
At the end of the day, I'm a musician who wants to go into a studio where someone else is engineering/producing.
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always an interesting point. i think of the Beatles & George Martin when I hear this subject. looking at the old end of the line Let It Be pics, where they are burnt out disgustedly unhappy looking, and yet totally taken over the mixing board for playbacks. Paul running the sliders, John with his feet on the board...no engineers in site...burnt beatles....burnt out...tired....the visual of "egotistical-runaway" causing burn out. taking over everything!

in comparison to their creative times with the Engineers running the board and mixing, the musician writing and playing and leaving the studio...leaving the engineering work for the Engineers.... a certain freshness and productivity flourishing.

the latter seems to be a better system.


SouthSIDE Glen said:
What makes things in this "home recording' realm so difficult for so many people is that it lies at a very unnatural and dangerous intersection: the corner of Musician St. And Engineering Dr.
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yes. my brothers band of musicians have gone on over 2yrs to record 10 songs... that they frequently play live. Good musicians, Engineers? er...? 2yrs to do 10 songs?:confused:

really interesting subject of humans in the studio run amuck, almost frustrating, yet like a true life drama soap opera.

musicians migrating to the control room like illegals into the US...taking over, piece by piece, until they hold the majority vote as they do in Texas nearly...but what is their ideals on votes and a good life for the US economy? are they really unbiased or will they just want more handouts and help? Maybe they will vote no state mandated car insurance? Maybe they'll vote its ok to not go to school! maybe the majority they hold will vote in and change laws like retirement age? or English as a Second Language?
Who knows...but we'll find out shortly.

So like the Musicians in the Control Room....

Do they know how to play the songs? YES
Do they know how to hit PLAY/REC? YES
CAN THEY PLUG IN A MIC? YES
Do they know what PAN does? YES
Do they know what treble does ? YES
Do they know what a speaker is for? YES!!!!

wow! the Musicians are Recording Engineers too!!:rolleyes:

my bro's band has been working on a 10 song demo cd to sell at gigs for over 2yrs now. the musicians are doing it. its often frustrating to hear the excuses and problems one after the other after the other....reasons they have to start all over, or haven't made any headway.... 2yrs later for a 10 song CD?

but its an interesting subject. I was a little league coach and this musician/engineer=unfinsihed demo thing seems to be very similar, chaos, unorganized, no coach driving the project......it flounders.

Musicians as Engineers? hmmm..... is it one too many hats to wear?
 
COOLCAT said:
my bro's band has been working on a 10 song demo cd to sell at gigs for over 2yrs now. the musicians are doing it. its often frustrating to hear the excuses and problems one after the other after the other....reasons they have to start all over, or haven't made any headway.... 2yrs later for a 10 song CD?
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It's it just me, or is there an extremely large number of bands who are selling their own homebrew CDs at gigs or on their website where at least one or two of the members who performed on the recording have since left the band. Usually (again, in my personal experience, anyway) it's not because the CD is all that old; it's because the length of time and the interpersonal stress involved in the DIY process tends to take it's toll on individuals who just decide, "I just wanna play music, I don't need this sh*t."
COOLCAT said:
I was a little league coach and this musician/engineer=unfinsihed demo thing seems to be very similar, chaos, unorganized, no coach driving the project
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That's a good point and analogy, especially when these bands imagine themselves as being a triple-A farm team and not a local pick-up game, and want to release a product as good as what Major League Baseball puts out ("We wanna sound like a pro CD"). Just as a good ball team neads a coach that knows his stuff to direct the team, a good homrec band usually benefits greatly from a seperate producer/engineer who already has the chops.

At the very least, the band can get mad at him/her instead of each other ;).

That's NOT to say that a good musician cannot also be a good engineer/prodcuer/band leader. Some people are lucky enough to have the mental ambidexterity and the social skills to pull it off.

But honestly, most people are not that lucky. That works in both directions; I am a much better engineer/producer than I am a musician, for example. I know on which side of the microphone I belong, and that's where I stay. I know some great musicians, many of them longtime personal friends. To this day it kills me that I am just not good enough to join them on stage because they are so much better than I. But I understand that's just the way it is. I also know I will never be fast enough to play in the NFL or comprimising enough to be president of the United States. So I stick to what I can do well and take pride in that.

And I think if one gets tuned off or a sore head by talk about decibels or Ohm's Law or other supposedly "technical" stuff, that probably is a pretty good litmus test that maybe they shoud just stay in front of the microphone and leave the behind the glass stuff to someone else, at lest for now. And there's nothing wrong with that.

G.
 
I gotta say I can relate to the head swimming part and confusion.

I'd also reccomend getting a couple books on the subject. There are some mixing, engineering and mastering books out there that will go through the steps in detail so you can bring your learning curve up to the point that you'll be following along in no time. I'd recommend a couple but that would almost qualify for another thread. Look around, go to Amazon, see what ya dig.
 
drfringe said:
Look around, go to Amazon, see what ya dig.
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This isn't entirely ready for prime time yet, but since it came up: If you want help browsing Amazon, check out my new book catalog applet at

www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/bookstore/

The listings for the Kindle editions are not active yet, nor is the graphic link for the Kindle itself. There is also forthcoming custom recommendation and review info for selected books that is not yet included in the applet.

But for looking up standard print edition books on Amazon, this is a hand-selected catalog of over 90 books available from Amazon, broken down into nine different categories related to audio recording, production and studio management. A lot easier than sorting through raw Amazon search results. And yes, the use of this applet has been approved in writing by Amazon. Just select the category, mouse over the resulting displayed thumbnials for basic info on the book, and click on either the thumbnail or the book title in the mouseover info to display the full Amazon detail page on that book.

In a couple of days there will be a new front page for the website that among many other things will include a link for the proper path and display of the catalog, at which time the rest of the applet features will be working as well, but if anyone is interested in a rough sneak preview of the beta version just to check the books out, here ya go.

G.
 
that's awesome! That's what I'm talking about. I can tell ya, I felt much more included after doing a little studying. Thank you
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Usually (again, in my personal experience, anyway) it's not because the CD is all that old; it's because the length of time and the interpersonal stress involved in the DIY process tends to take it's toll on individuals who just decide, "I just wanna play music, I don't need this sh*t."
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yes your right with the stress of DIY and recording (under the microscope) causing issues.

they were a happy band. my brother very talented really liked this band which is rare for him to say about musicians.

so they played locally all was well, it wasn't work it was fun.

then came the recording stage! "hey we need to go one step further and get that CD to sell!"

so they did and my brother did mention a worry and concern of the "under a microscope" environment as he'd been through the studio before.....under a microscope with no manager, no producer, just the recording studio dewd who was pretty lackadaisical.... (really laid back)...

so they partied at the studio, recorded wasted, started listening to playbacks "under the recording studio microscope" and thats when they realized some didn't really play very well...er....they were ok on stage....but uh....you might start seeing the pimples and warts..... and then the snipping started....

the little gestures of arguments started..."hey man why don't YOU re do YOUR part man...uh...I think YOU MISSED a FEW NOTES..."

the response.."yeah well ok...like yours is PERFECT there MAESTRO...."

and yes SG.....2 members were gone soon. Both fed up with being picked apart, and wanted to just play, have fun...play live in the bars ....who cares if the guitars are out of tune or a few notes were wrong..

I think then they started re-doing tracks in the studio, and soon bought their own home stuff to save money next and they haven't finished yet, hell they haven't even re-started really....and they have new members that don't know the songs of course.

really strange.....they knew all the songs, I mean I've heard a few flubs on Beatle CD's and it isn't noticed by most listeners, only the microscopic headphone crowd hi-end audiophile historian types...

DIY stress.....its crazy isn't it. To try and do everything.

I love that comment, the frkn tech-talk and ohms topic can determine where they belong.

I wonder ..thinking about this....how many studios get paid for half baked projects because the band can't get it together? I mean is it the Recording Studio dewds job to frkn Manage the Band and deal with their ego's?

I've only read mainly on Abbey Road and Beatles because thats all thats out there for the most part. Some Jimi Hendrix stuff but the books are more about Live things...Eddie Kramer probably dealt with some wasted hanger ons in the studio.
 
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