My first effort at Mixing/Mastering, let 'er rip!

elcholo

DALEEEBOOOOO


ok guys, need some feedback here in the following areas:

1. Overall mix and placement in the soundfield of each of the instruments and vocals
2. Overall volume levels of the instruments and vocals
3. overall how does it sound; muddy? too clear? (yah right!), too loud?, too soft?

Here's how it was recorded:

* Guitars - SM57 on the Hughs & Kettner - Strat was used
* Bass - Direct
* Drums - MSP style~2OH, 1Kick, SM57 on Snare (nady drum mics)
* Harmonica - SM57 on the little Pignose Amp.
* Vocals - AT4040 on Lead Vocal, MXL 900 on BGV - all running through a presonus tube pre --> Presonus BlueMax vocal compressor --> Firepod
* Keyboard - Roland S88 direct to firepod

The song is an original. My band, www.thehallelujahcowboys.com, recorded it - except I had to sing lead and bgv's since our lead vocalist couldn't get into the studio in time.

I EQ'd it here, compressed it there, all with plugins...no outboard gear just yet. I know it doesn't sound professional, I just want to know just how much it doesnt...I would definitely appreciate some feedback from Massive, if you have time!

thanks,

Elcholo
 
Hard to tell without hearing the original mix, so I can only comment on what's there now -

Seems to big a big "hole" in midrange which is a little odd... The high end seems a bit strident, but it might be accentuated from the cut in the mids. It's almost as if the high end was in its own place... Some strange pumping in there also - Again, can't tell if it was there before or not.
 
I only EQ'd according to what sounded good to my ears, I think I started out with a 'smiley' approach then adjusted from there.

I mixed down 3 times i believe - keys/vocals/guitars --> drums/bass --> Harmonica and keyboard solo. I was having DAW proc issues and it couldn't handle running all of the tracks at once...

I could get you (massive) each original mix as it was before i futzed around with them...Eventually i'd like to pay to have you do the whole song for me. I was just wanted to see how far off I was.

cholo
 
Hmmmm,.... I know I am not the "Master" but I will do my best to help lol.

Sounds pretty good for a first mix ever.

Now for the ugly stuff that regretably has to be said.

I agree with master about the EQing, and I think I figured out the problem when you said "smiley" It seems to me like you are using EQ because you think you have to "use EQ" Not the case, the number one rule is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" Number two rule being "never boost EQ, ONLY cut!" We always break that rule, but we always look over our shoulder to make sure no-one is looking first lol.

The best approach to EQ is to do your best NOT to use any EQ, but when you do ONLY try to notch out the frequencies on the tracks that are colliding with other tracks. Hence: if the guitar is muddying up the bass find out where they intersect and notch one of them out in that area. (usually around 250hz and 800hz respectively) When you do break the "never boost" EQ rule, seriously never boost more than 1 or 2 db, and only do it on certain tracks. I never EQ the master buss, only individual tracks. I record with EQ on each track during the tracking process, I try to make each track sound the way I think it should sound in the finished product, this takes away the chance that you can screw everything up in the mix because you do not have to do much in the mixing process.

As a rule of thumb notch about 2db out of each track at a Q of 2.5 at 315hz, for some reason notching this freq. on everything always cleans up a mix. Also if you are recording in higher quality digital, you may want to boost 1 or 2 db on every track with a Q of around 2 at 10khz (reason being that, most modern mic's and pre's excel in this freq. which causes alot of phase cancellation at 10khz in the mix) This will add back that lost presence in your mixdown and keep it from getting too muddy.

Next thing, that pumping is probably because you used a compressor on the master buss. This is a bad idea because the compressor will always follow the loudest track, which means everything else will lose it's presence and start pumping in and out to follow the main focal point in the mix. I understand that your computer will not like this but the simple fact is that your mix will benefit greatly from using individual compressors on each instrument/vocal. I subgroup the drums, subgroup the bass, subgroup the guitars, vocals and backing vocals, keyboards, etc. all to their own subgroups then put a compressor on each subgroup. This gives each group it's own uniformity.

Last but not least "SPACE" every instrument should have it's own "space" in the mix. This is done by panning and using different amounts of reverb on each instrument/vocal. I found that panning things around and increasing/decreasing the reverb on each track while listening to the mix in mono helps greatly to achieve the desired outcome.

A few tid-bits: use a lower compression ratio on the vocals, they sound quite distorted (not sure if you were actually going for that effect or not) 2.1 ratio is plenty on your vocals, slow attack and fast release. As for the drums, your very next purchase should be better drum mics, those nadys make the drums sound like cardboard box's (no offense) Maybe an AKG D112 for the kick and some Sennheiser E604's on the toms ($199 for the D112 and $329 for 3 E604's) If you have money to burn get MD421's for the toms, but assuming you are as broke as the rest of us the E604's are as close as you can get to an MD421 and they are smaller and easier to mount! I have a bunch of them and love them! I actually found Samson CO-2's ($119 a pair) to be incredible budget mics for overheads, I was shocked at how good they sound for the money. I have not found MXL, Nady or Behringer mic's pleasing at all. I have tons of mics from Samson to Nuemann's, I think I have tried well over half the mic's in the world and would recommend staying away from MXL, Nady, and Behringer. Good cheap mics can be had from Samson, SE, Studio projects, Joe Meek, Cad, Rode, Octava, and others. Your firepod has pretty good pre's in it, so my advice to you would be concentrate on buying some really nice mics first and foremost. Of course with your computer issues the 2 most important things in your nearest future should be a faster computer built exculsively for recording, and a UAD-1 card for processing. Drum mic's coming in as a close third lol.

Well I hope this helps, keep up the good work, and I admire that you are willing to open yourself up to critisism in an open-minded quest to better your ability. I never mind helping people out when I feel they actually are trying to better themselves, and will actually take advice for face value with an open mind. Good luck! Dan
 
Hollowdan said:
Hmmmm,.... I know I am not the "Master" but I will do my best to help lol.

Sounds pretty good for a first mix ever.

Now for the ugly stuff that regretably has to be said.

I agree with master about the EQing, and I think I figured out the problem when you said "smiley" It seems to me like you are using EQ because you think you have to "use EQ" Not the case, the number one rule is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" Number two rule being "never boost EQ, ONLY cut!" We always break that rule, but we always look over our shoulder to make sure no-one is looking first lol.

I tried to follow the EQ Table from "The Mixing Engineer's Handbook, v.2". (LISTED BELOW) I tried to use it as a rule of thumb to help me avoid the muddiness and colliding freq's...Obviously, I got lost somewhere along the way


The best approach to EQ is to do your best NOT to use any EQ, but when you do ONLY try to notch out the frequencies on the tracks that are colliding with other tracks. Hence: if the guitar is muddying up the bass find out where they intersect and notch one of them out in that area. (usually around 250hz and 800hz respectively) When you do break the "never boost" EQ rule, seriously never boost more than 1 or 2 db, and only do it on certain tracks. I never EQ the master buss, only individual tracks. I record with EQ on each track during the tracking process, I try to make each track sound the way I think it should sound in the finished product, this takes away the chance that you can screw everything up in the mix because you do not have to do much in the mixing process.

I tried to record everything flat (thought I read that somewhere) so that it wasn't all jacked up to begin with - at least if it started flat, it could always go back to there to start over with. I tried to do what you mentioned above and failed with amazing skill!

As a rule of thumb notch about 2db out of each track at a Q of 2.5 at 315hz, for some reason notching this freq. on everything always cleans up a mix. Also if you are recording in higher quality digital, you may want to boost 1 or 2 db on every track with a Q of around 2 at 10khz (reason being that, most modern mic's and pre's excel in this freq. which causes alot of phase cancellation at 10khz in the mix) This will add back that lost presence in your mixdown and keep it from getting too muddy.


Awesome tip. thank you very much

Next thing, that pumping is probably because you used a compressor on the master buss. This is a bad idea because the compressor will always follow the loudest track, which means everything else will lose it's presence and start pumping in and out to follow the main focal point in the mix. I understand that your computer will not like this but the simple fact is that your mix will benefit greatly from using individual compressors on each instrument/vocal. I subgroup the drums, subgroup the bass, subgroup the guitars, vocals and backing vocals, keyboards, etc. all to their own subgroups then put a compressor on each subgroup. This gives each group it's own uniformity.

exactly what I did. Won't do it again

Last but not least "SPACE" every instrument should have it's own "space" in the mix. This is done by panning and using different amounts of reverb on each instrument/vocal. I found that panning things around and increasing/decreasing the reverb on each track while listening to the mix in mono helps greatly to achieve the desired outcome.

I did pan every instrument/vocal to a different spot between 9 and 3, but only used reverb on vocals and a few guitar tracks. I'll play more with this in the future

A few tid-bits: use a lower compression ratio on the vocals, they sound quite distorted (not sure if you were actually going for that effect or not) 2.1 ratio is plenty on your vocals, slow attack and fast release. As for the drums, your very next purchase should be better drum mics, those nadys make the drums sound like cardboard box's (no offense)

none taken. i'm broke. when I can, i'd like to try out some of MSH's omni mics he sells around here. I will also research more on the mics you mention below. thanks

Maybe an AKG D112 for the kick and some Sennheiser E604's on the toms ($199 for the D112 and $329 for 3 E604's) If you have money to burn get MD421's for the toms, but assuming you are as broke as the rest of us the E604's are as close as you can get to an MD421 and they are smaller and easier to mount! I have a bunch of them and love them! I actually found Samson CO-2's ($119 a pair) to be incredible budget mics for overheads, I was shocked at how good they sound for the money. I have not found MXL, Nady or Behringer mic's pleasing at all. I have tons of mics from Samson to Nuemann's, I think I have tried well over half the mic's in the world and would recommend staying away from MXL, Nady, and Behringer. Good cheap mics can be had from Samson, SE, Studio projects, Joe Meek, Cad, Rode, Octava, and others. Your firepod has pretty good pre's in it, so my advice to you would be concentrate on buying some really nice mics first and foremost. Of course with your computer issues the 2 most important things in your nearest future should be a faster computer built exculsively for recording, and a UAD-1 card for processing. Drum mic's coming in as a close third lol.

I had fried my P4 and was trying to finish up this project before heading to Nashville to meet with some record labels (a long story, but ended up withgreat feedback like you've provided here). I've since rebuilt my machine and am ready to rock.


Well I hope this helps, keep up the good work, and I admire that you are willing to open yourself up to critisism in an open-minded quest to better your ability. I never mind helping people out when I feel they actually are trying to better themselves, and will actually take advice for face value with an open mind. Good luck! Dan

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply...lots of info there. I try to view all negative criticism/feedback as positive at this point. If i'm going to make a living at this, then I need to know my weaknesses and where i'm failing. Fortunately for me, boards like this give me the opportunity to learn at my own pace from some very intelligent people. I know I have to be careful, but i've picked out the few on this board that I feel like I trust...After reading up on and sample-listening to MassiveMastering, i've decided that when I get the money, i'll be thowing some business his way. Thanks again HD.

Bass guitar Bottom at 50-80Hz, attack at 700Hz, snap at 2.5kHz
Kick Drum Bottom at 80-100Hz, hollowness at 400Hz, point at 3 -5kHz
Snare Fatness at 120-240Hz, point at 900Hz, crispness at 5kHz, snap at 10k
Toms Fullness at 240-500, attack at 5 – 7kHz
Floor tom Fullness at 80Hz, attack at 5kHz
Hi-hat and cymbals Clang at 200Hz, sparkle at 8-10kHz
Electric Guitar Fullness at 240-500Hz, presence at 1.5-2.5kHz, attenuate at 1kHz for 4x12 cabinet sound
Acoustic guitar Fullness at 80Hz, body at 240Hz, presence at 2-5kHz
Organ Fullness at 80Hz, body at 240Hz, presence at 2-5kHz
Piano Fullness at 80Hz, presence at 3-5kHz, honky tonk at 2.5kHz
Horns Fullness at 120Hz, piercing at 5kHz
Voice Fullness at 120Hz, boomy at 240Hz, presence at 5kHz, sibilance at 4-7kHz, air at 10-15kHz
Strings Fullness at 240Hz, scratchy at 7-10kHz
Conga Ring at 200Hz, slap at 5kHz


ElCholo
 
Back
Top