Mxl603 vs. Sm81 - Which would you choose??

[DJL]

Most of the time I wish people wouldn’t write microphone reviews until after they’ve at less tried using the mic in at least 5 differents sessions or so.

 

[Dot]

From this EM Shure KSM 141 review that Scinx posted:

Overall, the sound was somewhat flat (one-dimensional), shy on the lows, and not particularly true to the sound of the instrument. Then again, given the KSM141's bass-shy response, it could be just the thing for an acoustic guitar with a boomy low end that needs some taming.

I totally agree with that. If you're actually going to record in stereo with pairs then you want to get some depth and imagery in your recording - and for that the 141 just doesn't cut it. I think the 141 can do a great job on giving an "in your face" sound, and in that way help whatever you track with it cut through the mix while not being overly bright. For that reason, I could recommend buying a single 141, but not a pair.

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

 

[ozraves]

Most of the time I wish people wouldn’t write microphone reviews until after they’ve at less tried using the mic in at least 5 differents sessions or so.

Something Fletcher wrote kind of got me into "real world" tracking use. In essence, when working, you're not A/B'ing stuff but using it to lay down a track. So, my personal stuff is about 100 percent in the trenches use.

 

[ozraves]

For that reason, I could recommend buying a single 141, but not a pair.

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

I think that's a terrible idea. The real strength with these mics is that they are multipattern. The best sounds on acoustic seem to come with one in cardioid and the other in omni.

A pair of these plugged into an RNP is a thing of beauty on acoustic. They're good on the Great River MP-2NV but seem to match superbly to the RNP.

Steve
www.mojopie.com

 

[Tonio]

Sounds like a great candidate for overheads in some genres.

Thanks for your thoughts Dan,

T

From this EM Shure KSM 141 review that Scinx posted:



I totally agree with that. If you're actually going to record in stereo with pairs then you want to get some depth and imagery in your recording - and for that the 141 just doesn't cut it. I think the 141 can do a great job on giving an "in your face" sound, and in that way help whatever you track with it cut through the mix while not being overly bright. For that reason, I could recommend buying a single 141, but not a pair.

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

 

[skippy]

I realize that you rejected the Oktavas right off the bat, but I do wish you'd give them at least some consideration. With the full set of capsules (omni, cardioid, hyper), they are very useful mics indeed, and represent one hell of a bang-for-the-buck option. I have a metric shitload of them for the stuff I'm doing now (location recording and sound reinforcement of large-group a capella vocal music). At last count there were 10 preamp bodies, 10 cardioid capsules, 8 hyper capsules, and 6 omni capsules in my road mic case- and another pair of matched and tweeked cardioids (from The Sound Room) in my toolbox. I've used them all.

The small amount of acoustic guitar stuff I've done with them has been very usable (with the omni capsule in a nice room), at least to my aging earbones. However, I'm not a guitar guy. If you're dead set against them, I certainly would be the last guy to tell you otherwise. But they are damned near the first mics I reach for these days for a lot of acoustic music, and they aren't the only mics I have in the locker by a fairly long shot...

Caveat: pull them apart, deflux the boards, and do the Scott Dorsey checks for component mismatch or substitutions (Google Groups search on Dorsey, "leak resistor", and Oktava) unless you get them from The Sound Room. They are low-cost Russian mics, after all, and some of them need TLC. But once properly vetted, they just flat out work, and work, and work- for me anyway. And I have less invested in the whole wad than in a single Schoeps Colette... Your mileage may vary, and good luck!

 

[Dot]

The real strength with these mics [ the 141's ] is that they are multipattern.

Well, that's where we'll disagree, Steve, 'cause I think the "real strength" of a mic should be the sound and/or price vs performance ratio - and especially omnis should deliver nice imagery and depth. The 141's don't. I'm not really buying into the whole "multi-cap" bandwagon a lot of companies are jumping on unless they produce all patterns well. The 141's have a street price of about $800 for a pair - and I think for that type of money folks should be getting a better type of performance. I like the 141 in omni - but it's still not a "true omni" and sounds more like figure-8 to my ears. A mic like the Groove Tubes GT33 allows for optional capsules - and while giving an "in your face" sound like the 141, still delivers much better air, depth and imagery than the 141.

Scinx, you started this thread asking whether or not you should get the $200 pair of MXL 603's or the $650 pair of Shure SM81's. Actually, I suggest you might consider the Groove Tubes GT33 which run about $560 for a pair - and you have the option of ordering additional capsules later on.

While the 603's are perfectly good mics and great for the money, there is definitely a better range of performance when you get into mics like the SM81's. But then by the time you're looking at spending between $500 and $1000 on a pair of SD's, your options open up a lot more. It all depends on your budget and how you want to use the mics.

I do think that some of the $500-$1000-pair SD mics that do a better job of double duty acoustic gtr and drum over heads are Groove Tubes GT33, Shure SM81, Josephson C-42's, Audix SCX-One's These mics are generally a bit darker than mics like the AKG 451's, AT4041's, DPA minatures... In this kind of price range, in a cardioid, the Josephson's are, IMO, the best combination of mild color, detail and imagery while still being able to handle drum OH duties.

If you can spend around $200, the 603's are a great deal. Actually, the SP C4's for $369 are worth a look as they have a nice color to them and handle drum OH's well. If you can swing around $500 then the GT33's would be the next step up, IMO. At $950 a pair, the Josephson's are worth the extra money - and even though they aren't multi-pattern like the 141's - I think are worth $150 more than a pair of 141's.

Just some thoughts...

Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

 

[Scinx]

Thank you very much. I am definately looking into the Josephson C-42's. How are they on piano? Also - do you know of any sound clips that were recorded with them for any of the aforementioned instruments (acoustic guitar, drum overheads, etc. [and folding chairs])?
Lastly - what would you think about a C42/GT44 pair? Do you think they would complement each other well? Or would things be better off with 2 C42s?

Btw - the St Anger tribute on the listening sessions page is amazing...I encourage everyone to go check it out. I was falling on the floor...

 

[ozraves]

Dot--

OK, you don't like the KSM141s OR the FMR RNP. Steve Albini agrees with me that both of these items are pretty damn good. I can live with that.

--Steve
www.mojopie.com

 

[ozraves]

I am looking for a pair of mics that can excel at acoustic guitar and eventually be used as drum overheads, piano, etc. I dont like the Oktavas for a couple reasons - most of which - I dont think they are as good on guitar (if I wanted overheads only I think Id go for them)

Without thinking about price - are the SM81s better performers than the Mxl603s?
If so, does the better sound justify the extra cost. I dont want to shell out $200 and then wish I used that $200 towards something else.


Thanks a bunch in advance

Here's my best advice. Lower cost small condensers (moreso than any other lower cost item) just can't get in the ballpark with mics like the Josephson C42s or the Neumann KM184s or the Shure KSM141s. The extra money will be worth it. And, you'll have mics that'll be in your collection as long as you are making recordings. If you want to be assured that you'd have a pair of small condensers that'd work 99 percent of the time, then you should go with the Josephson C42s. Before the Neumann price increase, I would have said the Neumanns. I am very high on the KSM141s because they impart a sound to acoustic guitar I've never heard anywhere else. And, that applies to bargain $$ acoustics people bring in here and to my personal guitars which are top end instruments.

Steve
www.mojopie.com

 

[ozraves]

BTW, here's a good thread on the Josephsons...

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=5544

 

[Tonio]

Now this is the ultimate consession..... Some of us do not have capacity of a/b
equipment.
So for OZ bringing the Ultimate Flecther translation.... would be in my mind correct.
Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and just try the mic. At least try to find a shop
that will let you return a "mic" which could be uhhh hard for a "home wrecker". But as
the saying goes you get what you pay for may be the case. Heck I would love some C42's\
The OCatava MC012(good point Skippy) should be a good contender for the optional
capsules. I just don't see changing capsules to capture a take at moments notice, you
would need a pre conceived idea what to utlilize. hmmm.. Guess that's why I like the
414 so much for a utlility mic.
Looks like "budget" is the factor here. Choose wisely, for getting a ultimate mic (hit or
miss-suggestively depends on the enviromental acoustics and style of music) could
last you for a good period vs. getting a " inexpensive" product.
Ok I confused myself even more. I want all of them. he he he....
T

Something Fletcher wrote kind of got me into "real world" tracking use. In essence, when working, you're not A/B'ing stuff but using it to lay down a track. So, my personal stuff is about 100 percent in the trenches use.

 

[ozraves]

tonio--

man, lots of great points. budget is a big factor. warren dent ripped it up for me so i could put up the first review of the studio projects c4 small condensers. www.piemusic.com/mp/c4.html more people are interested in the c4 mics than are interested in the entire small condenser market segment that the josephsons and their competition reside in.

here's some gold by harvey on mic'ing acoustic guitar: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=h...D4A287.05269A188EACB89A@lp.airnews.net&rnum=5

one thing that enters my mind as making a great mic is sonic signature. to quote karl winkler of neumann usa:

But the real differences in mics will show up after repeated use in
different situations. That's where low self noise, a particular sonic
signature, coherent HF response, lack of distortion, etc., really
begin to prove why really good mics are so desired (and often
expensive).

over time, the same mics get mentioned again and again by different real world users as being desirable. in small condensers, the gold standard has been the neumann km184. the josephsons seem to be coming on strong in terms of gear afficianados signing on to them. on the low end, the consistent user faves are the oktava mk012 and the mxl 603. sort of in between all this has been the shure sm81.

steve
www.mojopie.com

 

[DJL]

Something Fletcher wrote kind of got me into "real world" tracking use. In essence, when working, you're not A/B'ing stuff but using it to lay down a track. So, my personal stuff is about 100 percent in the trenches use.

Yeah, I'd say 99% of the miic reviews written are mostly worthless. I use to like our Studio Projects C1 microphone when we first got it, then after having it for a while I found I was using it less and less, and about a year later I ended up selling it.

 

[DJL]

FWIW, I own a lot of SDC mics, AKG 451's, Josephson C42, Shure SM81's, KSM141 and etc, etc... but, I still really like my Marshall MXL603SPR's and Oktava MC-012's mics a lot.

 

[kid klash]

603 versus SM-81 huh?

If you want a bright, hyped HF LDC for a very reasonable price, go with the 603.

If you want a smooth, unhyped LDC with a solid bottom as well as mids and HF, go with the 81.

I've been using SM-81s for quite a few years now, and I've been very happy with them.

 

[Michael Jones]

603 versus SM-81 huh?

If you want a bright, hyped HF LDC for a very reasonable price, go with the 603.

If you want a smooth, unhyped LDC with a solid bottom as well as mids and HF, go with the 81.

I've been using SM-81s for quite a few years now, and I've been very happy with them.

That pretty much sums it up.
I did a shoot out between those 2 (and others) here:
http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1656&alid=-1

 

[DJL]

Yeah, except the SM81 and 603S are SDC mics and not LDC mics.