MXL603 users - your advice please

[Armistice]

MXL603 users - your advice please
I have pairs of both MXL603s and NT5s - never been happy with either, despite all the glowing press they receive here - to my ears there's this fundamental "metallic" sound that they produce that I don't like. Quite good in a busy mix with lots of other stuff around, but when I'm recording just fingerstyle, flatpicked or strummed acoustics, I haven't yet had a result I'm totally happy with.

Recently had some recordings done at a demo studio with an KM84 through a mixer (for preamp - hardly optimal) and compared it to the sound I was getting. The KM84 sound was mellower, less harsh, almost less detailed in a way.

I didn't love it either, but it was better on the ears than what I was getting at home. That started me pointing the MXL603s in different directions, figuring they were just too harsh pointed straight at the guitar - have got much better results with one pointed 45 degrees to the fretboard instead of 90, aimed towards the sound hole. Much better, but there' still these resonances I'm not happy with.

Wondering two things:

(a) where you stick your MXL603s in relation to the guitar (subquestion - do you find them harsh when pointed at the guitar, given the context of musical style I'm talking about - not rock, just acoustics)?

(b) experiences with LD condensers and acoustics - my only LD is an NT2 and I like that even less that the NT5s and MXL603s - anything cheapish you'd recommend (or even more expensive).

I don't mind spending money to get results, but I'm getting a little weary of buying stuff that doesn't do the job, and ending up with lots of cheaper equipment when perhaps I should have bitten the bullet and gone more expensive in the first place.

For the record I'm using Mindprint Envoice & Presonus MP20 pres - the results are similar with either.

Thanks

 

[StevenLindsey]

I have also found the 603 to be a bit "metallic", "clanky", on my guitar when using it by itself. I usually angle mine, like you said, at the 12-14th fret toward the hole. I've gotten some nice results with an NTK below the bridge along with the 603 and also with a Sennheiser 441 on the bridge. The NTK seems to help smooth it out and panned just right it gets pretty tasty. I'm really liking the sound of a dynamic on my guitar since I've gotten a decent preamp. Just experiment with different mics on the bridge end until you find a combination that makes your ears feel good. Have you experimented with EQ using the 603? I'm probably going to have to upgrade to a better small diaphragm eventually. I'm never really satisfied either. But I'm much much closer now that I have my RNP. Have you tried using a 603 with the NT5? Aren't the NT5s a little darker sounding? Maybe combining the two...... Hope you hit on a good choice soon.

Maybe a different guitar? maybe the guitar is actually clanky?

 

[ausrock]

I know what guitar Armi is using and it definitely isn't "clanky".

I still think the 603's are "a keeper" where SD mics are concerned and I have only run mine through my Soundcraft's pre's at this stage...........I have to finish building a 110V supply before I can play with my Envoice and Symetrix.

Armi, have you used the 603's in an X-Y configuration........one aimed at the 12th fret, the other at the bridge, usually approx 12" out from the guitar.

 

[tdukex]

Armi, have you used the 603's in an X-Y configuration........one aimed at the 12th fret, the other at the bridge, usually approx 12" out from the guitar.

I've gotten very good results with XY out about 12" from the neck joint. This close to the guitar, I usually have them angled out at about 110 degrees. I think the angle is more important than pointing them at a particular spot on the guitar.

Also, if you try backing the mics up a bit, you will find the sound mellows and becomes less harsh and more complex. At 24" you may find the traditional 90 degrees sounds better.

 

[chessrock]

They definitely have a lot of definition, but I wouldn't call them harsh or metalic in the least.

 

[darrin_h2000]

What acoustic are you using...that may be a factor.

 

[Armistice]

I'm using a Maton Messiah. Australian brand so not expecting you to have heard of it - it has a RRP of $4000AUD, put that USD number against Martin / Taylor etc and that will give you an estimate of the quality of the guitar - beautifully balanced and quite mellow.

Have a cheaper version which is noticably brighter and they sound real bad on that.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad sound I'm now getting, just not quite good enough for my liking in the sparser arrangements. I've spent a lot of time playing with mic positions & pres etc.

I will try your various suggestions - have XY ed before but that was back when I didn't know as much, and I may have been too close - will try the wider angle and mix and matching NT5s in as well.

No sign of the Mindprint Envoice Aus? When it turns up, let me know what you think of the noise level with the Effects engaged (which turns on the compressor, EQ etc) - I only use it as a clean pre without this as it's too noisy for my stuff with it in. OK perhaps for electric, but a bit high on acoustic. If you find no issue then maybe I have a dud tube!!

Thank you all.

 

[Chris Shaeffer]

How 'bout adding a LD condensor, panned close to center, and place it to fill whatever sound you aren't getting for the sparse arrangements?

I tend to go LD for sparse stuff, with the 603's added for mixing ability. But then, I don't have any SD's better than the 603's, so I don't have much choice.

I've also found that the 603's are usually great choices for acoustic guitar, but there are certainly times when they aren't.

I also wonder if your space and where you are in that space is a concideration. "Metallic" isn't a term I'd apply to most spatial sounds, but you never know. Have you tried moving around in the room to see if that affects the metallicness?

Take care,
Chris

 

[ausrock]

Armi,

That song of your's I have on NWR, if you wish I will post the link here..........it may give other's an idea of your music, if not necessarily illustrate the sound you are or are not after.

Chris O

 

[freshmattyp]

The setup I've been using lately is a 603 at the 12th fret, a 603 aimed midway between the treble side of the bridge and the lower bout, and an SPB3 on Omni about 2 feet out aimed at the soundhole. This seems to work on a variety of guitars, and gives me a nice full sound.

I just got a 414 BULS that I'm dying to try with this setup.

 

[Lane]

I have just gotten a 603 and am having some trouble with it... I am putting it near the 14th fret, but have moved around a lot, but I get a low, clunk, sort of sound off the bass strings - hard to describe but it almost sounds like I'm striking the guitar body with my fingers or something, kind of a distorted, low end thunk.... I get the same with my Taylor, Guild and Martin.... but actually with my LD mic as well. Am I too close? I'm setting them about 6 inches away and in various parts of the guitars - but if I go any farther I get too much background from my PC which I'm recording with..

 

[DJL]

MXL603 users - your advice please
I have pairs of both MXL603s and NT5s - never been happy with either, despite all the glowing press they receive here - to my ears there's this fundamental "metallic" sound that they produce that I don't like. Quite good in a busy mix with lots of other stuff around, but when I'm recording just fingerstyle, flatpicked or strummed acoustics, I haven't yet had a result I'm totally happy with.

hummm, does your guitar sound metallic and is your room acoustically treated, and what's your monitoring system/room like?

 

[Armistice]

DJL - no, the guitar's not metallic sounding - anything but - take your point about the monitoring environment - will burn some stuff this weekend and listen on a few other systems, see if I'm being oversensitive because of my less than wonderful control set up.

Hi Aus - if it's still up there, that would be great!

Cheers

Lane - don't want to belabour the obvious, but what is the sound actually sound like without the mic? I used to have an issue with the way things sounded (who knows, maybe I still do) because they didn't sound like what I thought they should sound like. When I examined what I was actually playing I discovered I was beating the crap out of the low strings with my thumb and it was producing a really dull sound - the mic was just recording it. I've changed the way I play to avoid that - much lighter touch these days - I know exactly the sound you're talking about though - very dull and woody. Heard it recently with the KM84 that was used on me - think it was too close to the guitar - I no longer get it with the 603

 

[Lane]

Armistice,
I understand the point your'e making, but no - its not there when I play.... not audible to the ear anyway. I just listened again to the recording and it sounds more like a sort of distortion - I also recorded with my guitar pick up alone and its OK (though I dont get very good sound out of the Fishman) I think I said that I get the same boomy kind of clunky sound with my other mic - a LD... so I'm guessing its placement... how far away should I be with a 603?

 

[ausrock]

OK I know it's not the mp3 forum, but here's a couple of things I'm hosting on my NWR site..........the first link is Armistice and the second is for anyone's morbid curiousity

http://www.nowhereradio.com/armistice/singles

http://www.nowhereradio.com/innerblue/singles

 

[Flatpicker]

For the record I'm using Mindprint Envoice & Presonus MP20 pres - the results are similar with either...

Just thinking out loud here, but you might want to check out a better preamp before you do any more mic shuffling. Not that your preamps are all that bad, but they probably are still not good enough to let your mics sound like they sound.

Here lately I'm finally learning that going from a <$500 preamp to a >$1000 preamp is like going form a harsh, one dimensional sound, to a smooth, 3 dimensional one, even with sub $100 mics. As a result, I have sworn off buying mics (I’m even selling a few…) until I somehow come up with a world class sounding preamp.

If I were you, I'd beg, borrow or steal (actually borrowing is your safest bet ) and try some better preamps.

Just a thought.

 

[SHEPPARDB.]

I have noticed the harshness that you mentioned(with the 603's)
but the thing to remember is that placement is everything.I
would never aim one of these to the sound hole unless you back it up at least 12 inches or so.I seem to be able to get the best results out of an AxB configuration:One pointed straight at the 12 th fret and the other pointing down over my(picking hand)
shoulder.
My opinion is that the 603's are not that great as pairs,but if you add a medium or large diaphram as the B mic ,you can find a workable sound for your style.