dr.colossus
New member
FEA's SP page has been updated with no additional change to pricing, not that one was expected.... 
ausrock
Well-known member
I think we have seen all the change we're likely to see for a while now.
From all that has occured since I started this thread (about MXLs I might add), I can only presume that as things stand, Alan is shipping what he considers a satisfactory and viable number of mics to Aust., and he really is to be commended for his efforts in getting some reduction in prices, because in some ways he is between a rock and a hard place on this issue.
Who has to be his number one priority........his business (and it's employees), his distributor/dealers or his end users..............seriously, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that he needs to look after all these areas, and in doing so, there is always the risk of someone not getting exactly what they would like.
Any further change, is likely to come at a cost, probably, mainly to SP, so what has to be considered there, is whether such a change would be balanced out (justified) by any improvements in sales, etc.,
From all that has occured since I started this thread (about MXLs I might add), I can only presume that as things stand, Alan is shipping what he considers a satisfactory and viable number of mics to Aust., and he really is to be commended for his efforts in getting some reduction in prices, because in some ways he is between a rock and a hard place on this issue.
Who has to be his number one priority........his business (and it's employees), his distributor/dealers or his end users..............seriously, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that he needs to look after all these areas, and in doing so, there is always the risk of someone not getting exactly what they would like.
Any further change, is likely to come at a cost, probably, mainly to SP, so what has to be considered there, is whether such a change would be balanced out (justified) by any improvements in sales, etc.,
D
DJL
Self Banned
I agree, Alan should be commended for his efforts. I also think there would be a pretty big improvement in sales if the B1 was only $79 in Aust like it is in the USA.
ausrock
Well-known member
With that equating to approx $126 Aust., I reckon there's a snowflake's chance in hell of that happening. Why do you think I'm looking at alternate sources
D
DJL
Self Banned
ausrock said:<snip>
Why do you think I'm looking at alternate sources
Because you want to boycott FEA.
ausrock
Well-known member
*Coughs...........splutters*.
Nah, it's not quite like that.
Nah, it's not quite like that.
D
DJL
Self Banned
Then maybe it's because you think Mick is a prick?
ausrock
Well-known member
ROFLMGDFAO.............................
But to reply............Nope.
But to reply............Nope.
G
Glawfindle
New member
To Alan Hyatt,
Please see the quote by Adzzz below.
" Let's look at this logically. If the mic is manufactured on our doorstep in Asia, shipping to OZ should cost at the very WORST, the same price that it costs to ship the mic to the USA....right?!? Please tell me if you think that's a false assumption.
So, if the shipping costs should be at worst, the same as the USA....then why aren't we paying the same price as the USA?!? The simple FACT is, that we should by all means be paying a street price in OZ of around AUD $330. The reason we're paying a lot, LOT MORE (sometimes literally hunderds $$$ more), is because of:
* incompetant business decisions and shipping "solutions" by Studio Projects
* Studio Projects inability to control their delears to set fair and reasonable prices
* distributor's/dealer's greed, SP's lack of action in actually doing the right thing.
Please explain to me how hard it is for Studio Projects to change the address on a box of mics from a US dealer's name to an Australian one?
To all those people who seem intent on defending these tactics, please re-read this post with a clear mind and I'm sure you'll finally be able to awake, and smell the roses....
They simpy don't give a rats...
Adzzz"
Now Alan, could you please explain to us why your mics need to be shipped from 797 in China (or wherever they come from) to the USA, then to Australia? You've mentioned that shipping costs are not great - can you give us some indication as to what they really are please? Even if the costs are low - this cost is still built into the cost that we, the end users have to pay in the end. Do they need to be shipped to the USA for Quality Control or for some other reason? If it is for QC can this be done by your people in China. Adzzz pretty much asks the rest of the questions that need to be answered...please reply Alan. Below are some retail prices (RRP or list price) of what some would call comparitive products.
SP C1 - $519
RODE NT1-A - $499
SP C3 - $799
RODE NT2 - $749
RODE NT2-NC - $699
So Alan there has definitely been an improvement and we really do thank you for your help but - even though the RRP has lowered to be closer to some competitors prices...the street price or sell price gap between the two is still quite large. Rode must still be giving better margins to their dealers than SP is. I can get a much better deal on a new NT1-A (or even better on an old NT1)over the C1 and a better deal on the NT2 when compared to the C3 from any of the main pro audio dealers in Australia. (I won't go into specific comparisons between the mics at this stage).
What was that you mentioned about setting up seperate SP owned 'distributor' in Australia....? Bring it on....! But, do you do enough business down here in Australia to warrant this?
Yours...with further hopes....
Please see the quote by Adzzz below.
" Let's look at this logically. If the mic is manufactured on our doorstep in Asia, shipping to OZ should cost at the very WORST, the same price that it costs to ship the mic to the USA....right?!? Please tell me if you think that's a false assumption.
So, if the shipping costs should be at worst, the same as the USA....then why aren't we paying the same price as the USA?!? The simple FACT is, that we should by all means be paying a street price in OZ of around AUD $330. The reason we're paying a lot, LOT MORE (sometimes literally hunderds $$$ more), is because of:
* incompetant business decisions and shipping "solutions" by Studio Projects
* Studio Projects inability to control their delears to set fair and reasonable prices
* distributor's/dealer's greed, SP's lack of action in actually doing the right thing.
Please explain to me how hard it is for Studio Projects to change the address on a box of mics from a US dealer's name to an Australian one?
To all those people who seem intent on defending these tactics, please re-read this post with a clear mind and I'm sure you'll finally be able to awake, and smell the roses....
They simpy don't give a rats...
Adzzz"
Now Alan, could you please explain to us why your mics need to be shipped from 797 in China (or wherever they come from) to the USA, then to Australia? You've mentioned that shipping costs are not great - can you give us some indication as to what they really are please? Even if the costs are low - this cost is still built into the cost that we, the end users have to pay in the end. Do they need to be shipped to the USA for Quality Control or for some other reason? If it is for QC can this be done by your people in China. Adzzz pretty much asks the rest of the questions that need to be answered...please reply Alan. Below are some retail prices (RRP or list price) of what some would call comparitive products.
SP C1 - $519
RODE NT1-A - $499
SP C3 - $799
RODE NT2 - $749
RODE NT2-NC - $699
So Alan there has definitely been an improvement and we really do thank you for your help but - even though the RRP has lowered to be closer to some competitors prices...the street price or sell price gap between the two is still quite large. Rode must still be giving better margins to their dealers than SP is. I can get a much better deal on a new NT1-A (or even better on an old NT1)over the C1 and a better deal on the NT2 when compared to the C3 from any of the main pro audio dealers in Australia. (I won't go into specific comparisons between the mics at this stage).
What was that you mentioned about setting up seperate SP owned 'distributor' in Australia....? Bring it on....! But, do you do enough business down here in Australia to warrant this?
Yours...with further hopes....
ausrock
Well-known member
As the originator of this thread, and someone who has done a fair amount of research into import costs among other things, without wanting to pre-empt Alan, I will respond.
Adzzz, in his "in your face way" only asked two questions:
1:"Let's look at this logically. If the mic is manufactured on our doorstep in Asia, shipping to OZ should cost at the very WORST, the same price that it costs to ship the mic to the USA....right?!? Please tell me if you think that's a false assumption."
The answer to that is probably that his assumption is reasonably accurate.
2:"Please explain to me how hard it is for Studio Projects to change the address on a box of mics from a US dealer's name to an Australian one? "
The answer is probably that it is bloody easy to change an address.
Really an accurate answer to either of these questions is not particularly relevant and as I think has been said before, Alan has managed to do something other "manufacturers" don't appear willing to do, (at least at this time), and that is to get their Aust., distributors to drop prices.
Most importer/distributors won't enter into a "contract" if they can't have control of local pricing and from memory there are legal restraints which have some influence in these areas.
Retailers either won't.......... act as a dealer for a product if there isn't sufficient difference between their buy price and the Recommended Retail Price (RRP) to allow them to discount to a reasonable street (or buy) price while still making a fair profit..........OR they may take on a particular brand or product but you can bet that staff won't go out of their way to promote that product when they have similar items available with better margins to play with.
When you have a distributor who has in the past, displayed a propensity for giving minimal margins, (or has at least developed a reptutaion for same and then some), then retailers are going to be less inclined to deal in that distributor's product range.............they will, but only on a "need to" basis. This may be a geographically large country, but the jungle telegraph amongst the major retailers is extremely efficient.
Realistically, the answers you seek are already there to see..................all you have to do is look in the right places.
Adzzz, in his "in your face way" only asked two questions:
1:"Let's look at this logically. If the mic is manufactured on our doorstep in Asia, shipping to OZ should cost at the very WORST, the same price that it costs to ship the mic to the USA....right?!? Please tell me if you think that's a false assumption."
The answer to that is probably that his assumption is reasonably accurate.
2:"Please explain to me how hard it is for Studio Projects to change the address on a box of mics from a US dealer's name to an Australian one? "
The answer is probably that it is bloody easy to change an address.
Really an accurate answer to either of these questions is not particularly relevant and as I think has been said before, Alan has managed to do something other "manufacturers" don't appear willing to do, (at least at this time), and that is to get their Aust., distributors to drop prices.
Most importer/distributors won't enter into a "contract" if they can't have control of local pricing and from memory there are legal restraints which have some influence in these areas.
Retailers either won't.......... act as a dealer for a product if there isn't sufficient difference between their buy price and the Recommended Retail Price (RRP) to allow them to discount to a reasonable street (or buy) price while still making a fair profit..........OR they may take on a particular brand or product but you can bet that staff won't go out of their way to promote that product when they have similar items available with better margins to play with.
When you have a distributor who has in the past, displayed a propensity for giving minimal margins, (or has at least developed a reptutaion for same and then some), then retailers are going to be less inclined to deal in that distributor's product range.............they will, but only on a "need to" basis. This may be a geographically large country, but the jungle telegraph amongst the major retailers is extremely efficient.
Realistically, the answers you seek are already there to see..................all you have to do is look in the right places.
S
Soundsense
New member
As a dealer for Studio Projects mics in the UK, I thought I'd try and answer some of the comments made by Adzzz, Glawfindle and Ausrock.
I would assume the reason why the mics that end up in Australia have to be shipped via the US from China is one of quantity. Alan ships his mics in by the container load; several thousands of microphones at a time. He has containers into California for America, and into the UK to service the UK and Europe. If Australia was a large enough market, Alan would ship a container direct - if he doesn't, assume the market isn't big enough.
As I understand it, QC is done in the factory in China.
I don't think you can accuse Studio Projects of making incompetent business decisions and shipping "solutions". We've been re-selling Studio Projects for nearly two years now and Alan has always been looking at ways to bring product to market at the lowest possible price point. He understands the principle of the cheaper the price, the larger the quantity you can sell.
However, in most countries (certainly in the European Union and probably in the US), it is illegal for the manufacturer or distributor to enforce the price that a product is sold at to the end customer. If I buy a mic for $100 and want to sell it for $102, then that's up to me, even if my supplier would rather I sell it for $130.
When comparing prices between say, the US and the UK, people always forget the added costs of getting product to market - import duties, shipping costs etc. What you have to remember is that in countries where PMI do not control the distribution there will always be an extra level of profit that has to be accounted for (PMI to Distributor to Retailer to end user, rather than PMI to retailer to end user), and we all have to make a living.
We sell a lot of SP product out of the UK, primarily because the £ is so weak against the Euro. But one thing we always try to do is make sure our prices are as low as possible.
PMI are a great company to deal with - they care about their product and support their dealers; many other manufacturers don't give a damn.....
Best wishes
Derek Tallent
Soundsense
http://www.soundsense.co.uk
I would assume the reason why the mics that end up in Australia have to be shipped via the US from China is one of quantity. Alan ships his mics in by the container load; several thousands of microphones at a time. He has containers into California for America, and into the UK to service the UK and Europe. If Australia was a large enough market, Alan would ship a container direct - if he doesn't, assume the market isn't big enough.
As I understand it, QC is done in the factory in China.
I don't think you can accuse Studio Projects of making incompetent business decisions and shipping "solutions". We've been re-selling Studio Projects for nearly two years now and Alan has always been looking at ways to bring product to market at the lowest possible price point. He understands the principle of the cheaper the price, the larger the quantity you can sell.
However, in most countries (certainly in the European Union and probably in the US), it is illegal for the manufacturer or distributor to enforce the price that a product is sold at to the end customer. If I buy a mic for $100 and want to sell it for $102, then that's up to me, even if my supplier would rather I sell it for $130.
When comparing prices between say, the US and the UK, people always forget the added costs of getting product to market - import duties, shipping costs etc. What you have to remember is that in countries where PMI do not control the distribution there will always be an extra level of profit that has to be accounted for (PMI to Distributor to Retailer to end user, rather than PMI to retailer to end user), and we all have to make a living.
We sell a lot of SP product out of the UK, primarily because the £ is so weak against the Euro. But one thing we always try to do is make sure our prices are as low as possible.
PMI are a great company to deal with - they care about their product and support their dealers; many other manufacturers don't give a damn.....
Best wishes
Derek Tallent
Soundsense
http://www.soundsense.co.uk
D
DJL
Self Banned
"As I understand it, QC is done in the factory in China."
* I though QC was done CA USA... no?
"However, in most countries (certainly in the European Union and probably in the US), it is illegal for the manufacturer or distributor to enforce the price that a product is sold at to the end customer. If I buy a mic for $100 and want to sell it for $102, then that's up to me, even if my supplier would rather I sell it for $130."
* How does Neumann get away with it then?
* I though QC was done CA USA... no?
"However, in most countries (certainly in the European Union and probably in the US), it is illegal for the manufacturer or distributor to enforce the price that a product is sold at to the end customer. If I buy a mic for $100 and want to sell it for $102, then that's up to me, even if my supplier would rather I sell it for $130."
* How does Neumann get away with it then?
S
Soundsense
New member
DJL said:
If the shipment comes to the UK straight from China, then it must be done somewhere other than CA USA......
Whilst it's illegal for a manufacturer to enforce the price, they can control the supply by making it bloody difficult for the discounters to get supplies....
D
DJL
Self Banned
Thanks Soundsense, yea that makes sense. But I could of swore I read Alan saying somewhere that the Studio Projects mic QC was all done in CA USA. Maybe Alan will comment... how about it Alan?
I understand Neumann also raised their prices. What a bunch of crooks they are.
I understand Neumann also raised their prices. What a bunch of crooks they are.
G
Glawfindle
New member
By Ausrock...
"Retailers either won't.......... act as a dealer for a product if there isn't sufficient difference between their buy price and the Recommended Retail Price (RRP) to allow them to discount to a reasonable street (or buy) price while still making a fair profit..........OR they may take on a particular brand or product but you can bet that staff won't go out of their way to promote that product when they have similar items available with better margins to play with."
Aus, I mostly agree with what you say. But, compare item A that the retailer buys for $50 and sells for $100 against item B that the retailer buys for $50 and sells for $90.
If the retailer sells the ratio of two of items Bs (because it is a better seller, for whatever reason) to every one of item A, then he is making
Item A: $100 - $50 = $50 Gross Profit
Item B: $100 - $60 = $40 x 2 = $80 Gross Profit
Also, if the sales staff receive a 'kick back' for selling Item B and the store manager is happy to operate like this, then he is better stocking item B, if he had to choose between the two. Of course if the store manager could stock both items he / she could also influence his staff to sell item A, but if they discover that it is easier to sell two if item B over one of item A, then their choice is really made up.
Do you think a MAP would work in Australia and do you think that margins will reduce to the levels where the RRP or list price is the true street or sell price? Do you believe that end users in general perceive that they are getting a product for 'better value' if they buy it for the street price which may be way below the RRP or list?
By Ausrock...
"Really an accurate answer to either of these questions is not particularly relevant and as I think has been said before, Alan has managed to do something other "manufacturers" don't appear willing to do, (at least at this time), and that is to get their Aust., distributors to drop prices."
Really, I'd like an accurate answer from Alan regarding the reason why SP products have to be shipped from China to the USA, then to Australia instead of from China straight to us (if this is accurate, of course) - so that we can understand why Aussies have to pay more? If Alan could ship the required quantities straight to us (we are closer to China than the USA) then our prices should even be cheaper than the USA. If he could open up an SP owned distributor in Australia (and avoid the external distributors profit margin) they would be cheaper. Aus I'm as interested in these (seemingly unecessary - until we hear otherwise) additional costs as you are in individual mic components.
By Soundsense....
"I would assume the reason why the mics that end up in Australia have to be shipped via the US from China is one of quantity. Alan ships his mics in by the container load; several thousands of microphones at a time. He has containers into California for America, and into the UK to service the UK and Europe. If Australia was a large enough market, Alan would ship a container direct - if he doesn't, assume the market isn't big enough."
OK Derek (Soundsense), so if the QC is done in China and containers are shipped directly to the USA and UK....is it cheaper to send a container from China then to the USA, then sea freight part of it to Australia, rather than sea freight a smaller shipment to Australia directly from China? I would think not?
As mentioned, I'm happy the prices have come down here - well the RRPs have lowered more than the street prices... - but I still feel that more can be done.
"Retailers either won't.......... act as a dealer for a product if there isn't sufficient difference between their buy price and the Recommended Retail Price (RRP) to allow them to discount to a reasonable street (or buy) price while still making a fair profit..........OR they may take on a particular brand or product but you can bet that staff won't go out of their way to promote that product when they have similar items available with better margins to play with."
Aus, I mostly agree with what you say. But, compare item A that the retailer buys for $50 and sells for $100 against item B that the retailer buys for $50 and sells for $90.
If the retailer sells the ratio of two of items Bs (because it is a better seller, for whatever reason) to every one of item A, then he is making
Item A: $100 - $50 = $50 Gross Profit
Item B: $100 - $60 = $40 x 2 = $80 Gross Profit
Also, if the sales staff receive a 'kick back' for selling Item B and the store manager is happy to operate like this, then he is better stocking item B, if he had to choose between the two. Of course if the store manager could stock both items he / she could also influence his staff to sell item A, but if they discover that it is easier to sell two if item B over one of item A, then their choice is really made up.
Do you think a MAP would work in Australia and do you think that margins will reduce to the levels where the RRP or list price is the true street or sell price? Do you believe that end users in general perceive that they are getting a product for 'better value' if they buy it for the street price which may be way below the RRP or list?
By Ausrock...
"Really an accurate answer to either of these questions is not particularly relevant and as I think has been said before, Alan has managed to do something other "manufacturers" don't appear willing to do, (at least at this time), and that is to get their Aust., distributors to drop prices."
Really, I'd like an accurate answer from Alan regarding the reason why SP products have to be shipped from China to the USA, then to Australia instead of from China straight to us (if this is accurate, of course) - so that we can understand why Aussies have to pay more? If Alan could ship the required quantities straight to us (we are closer to China than the USA) then our prices should even be cheaper than the USA. If he could open up an SP owned distributor in Australia (and avoid the external distributors profit margin) they would be cheaper. Aus I'm as interested in these (seemingly unecessary - until we hear otherwise) additional costs as you are in individual mic components.
By Soundsense....
"I would assume the reason why the mics that end up in Australia have to be shipped via the US from China is one of quantity. Alan ships his mics in by the container load; several thousands of microphones at a time. He has containers into California for America, and into the UK to service the UK and Europe. If Australia was a large enough market, Alan would ship a container direct - if he doesn't, assume the market isn't big enough."
OK Derek (Soundsense), so if the QC is done in China and containers are shipped directly to the USA and UK....is it cheaper to send a container from China then to the USA, then sea freight part of it to Australia, rather than sea freight a smaller shipment to Australia directly from China? I would think not?
As mentioned, I'm happy the prices have come down here - well the RRPs have lowered more than the street prices... - but I still feel that more can be done.
ausrock
Well-known member
I would have thought that QC would be carried out at PMI UK, before the mics are shipped to dealers.
In regard to the structure of the "manufacturer ----> end user" chain, in the US, there is obviously no need for that extra link, (the distributor), in New Zealand, the importer/distributor is also the retailer. They apparently work on a mail order basis, quite successfully, and in doing so are able to keep prices extremely competitive. So, obviously it can be done and the geographic size of your market area really doesn't matter if you know how to run an efficient business.
Somewhere, sooner or later, there has to be a balance between sales figures and the real (not perceived) quality of service being provided........... if that is out of balance, sooner or later it will turn around and bite you on the arse.
In regard to the structure of the "manufacturer ----> end user" chain, in the US, there is obviously no need for that extra link, (the distributor), in New Zealand, the importer/distributor is also the retailer. They apparently work on a mail order basis, quite successfully, and in doing so are able to keep prices extremely competitive. So, obviously it can be done and the geographic size of your market area really doesn't matter if you know how to run an efficient business.
Somewhere, sooner or later, there has to be a balance between sales figures and the real (not perceived) quality of service being provided........... if that is out of balance, sooner or later it will turn around and bite you on the arse.
ausrock
Well-known member
Glawfindle,
Although it really counts for precious little, my personal opinion is........... that until Alan can economically justify setting up a PMI office (or have someone who is TOTALLY dedicated to PMI and nothing else, here in Aust.), then we are stuck with what we currently have.
If you want to buy SP mics, etc., contact Nigel at Oceania in NZ.......sales@oceania-audio.co.nz ..........he is a nice guy and only too happy to help.
Although it really counts for precious little, my personal opinion is........... that until Alan can economically justify setting up a PMI office (or have someone who is TOTALLY dedicated to PMI and nothing else, here in Aust.), then we are stuck with what we currently have.
If you want to buy SP mics, etc., contact Nigel at Oceania in NZ.......sales@oceania-audio.co.nz ..........he is a nice guy and only too happy to help.
G
Glawfindle
New member
By Ausrock.......
"...how much are the perceived differences in the sound of a Rode compared to an SP mic influenced by the capsules, and is there a difference in the build quality between what Rode and SP mics are supplied with."
Well Alan replied that the Rode and SP capsules are not the same. To my understanding, the capsule has a great bearing on the frequency response of the microphone.
By Aus....
" If you want to buy SP mics, etc., contact Nigel at Oceania in NZ.......sales@oceania-audio.co.nz ..........he is a nice guy and only too happy to help."
This is very, very sad Aus......buying a fully Chinese made microphone by an American based company from a New Zealand distributor / retailer when I'm an Australian who lives in Australia?! Well you're probably right that we could do that to get the best price on SP mics but Alan is really necessary for you to force Australians to do this to get the best price? Well, I've mentioned that my main personal concerns are performance and price when buying a microphone, but....
In terms of comparing build quality / parts (other than capsules) between SP and Rode - have you compared the NT1000 to the C1(?)....a C1 would crumple a lot quicker than an NT1000 if treated harshly or dropped accidentally! The NT1000 and NTK are built like tanks!
"...how much are the perceived differences in the sound of a Rode compared to an SP mic influenced by the capsules, and is there a difference in the build quality between what Rode and SP mics are supplied with."
Well Alan replied that the Rode and SP capsules are not the same. To my understanding, the capsule has a great bearing on the frequency response of the microphone.
By Aus....
" If you want to buy SP mics, etc., contact Nigel at Oceania in NZ.......sales@oceania-audio.co.nz ..........he is a nice guy and only too happy to help."
This is very, very sad Aus......buying a fully Chinese made microphone by an American based company from a New Zealand distributor / retailer when I'm an Australian who lives in Australia?! Well you're probably right that we could do that to get the best price on SP mics but Alan is really necessary for you to force Australians to do this to get the best price? Well, I've mentioned that my main personal concerns are performance and price when buying a microphone, but....
In terms of comparing build quality / parts (other than capsules) between SP and Rode - have you compared the NT1000 to the C1(?)....a C1 would crumple a lot quicker than an NT1000 if treated harshly or dropped accidentally! The NT1000 and NTK are built like tanks!
G
Glawfindle
New member
alfalfa said:
Here, here....well said Alfalfa!
G
Glawfindle
New member
ausrock said:Rode have been saying for at least 12 months that they are going to bring ALL major component manufacturing (ie; capsules) to their Aust., factory. They already have their cases machined out around Mudgee I believe. If this is the case, I wonder how manufacturing costs will be affected, and if it will be reflected in the final prices. There could be interesting times ahead.
When I spoke to the staff at Rode via phone recently they told me that the new mics are due for release around August and that apparently this is when they will be openning their new 'much larger' factory in Silverwater in Sydney (moving from the suburb of Rhodes, near Strathfield) as well. Hopefully if Rode are making larger quantities of mics in their larger factory then the price per unit will be even lower - certainly beneficial to the end user! Yes, very interesting times ahead - and hopefully this will have a positive effect (ie. lower pricing) on the imported mics and other musical instruments.
I drove to Mudgee (took a detour) when I drove to the Bathurst1000 last year. The Rode signs on the metalwork facility in Mudgee are huge! I don't think there is much else in Mudgee except for some wineries...but you can't miss those signs.