Musictheory: What should I know to write great Popsongs?

[blueroom]

Since many years I work with synths and sequencers. I have a big knowledge in production technique but very little in music theory. In the course of time I did create many exciting songparts but as non-musican it is hard to create a whole song that can compete with songs from Jamiroquai/Aguilera or Pet Shop Boys. I tried to learn to play piano but i think I've got 10 thumbs. So I record in my sequencer in halftime and do some heavy edits by mouse
I read books about theory but im still
How do I know in which scale my part or song is. And what is my benefit if i know that?
What can i do with a leadsheet? What does it help if I know the first two chords are a and d.


I really love pop and dance music! And I would like to write songs.

 

[bdbdbuck]

I think you are getting too hung up on theory. Forget it for a while and see if you can at least hum the melody you want, then slowly play it on the piano. Practice it until you get it where you want it, then record what you have. It's not going to be perfect the first time, but you will get better every time you try.
Another avenue you could try is getting to know some musicians that can put your ideas into musical form, although songwriting like that can get pretty tricky, what with contracts, copyrights yada yada. Good luck.


bd

 

[jjtcorsair]

I say good for you for expanding your horizons and trying a new approach to music making. There are many excellent books written that teach music theory to the beginner (I'm guessing there are anyway). Grab one and dive in. Also learning the piano is an excellent way to help you understand harmonic relationships in a visual way. Your ears are your ultimate guide to what is "right" and what is "wrong" so use them, not only with your original compositions but also when listening to songs you admire. Disect those songs and figure out what makes them tick for you. Learn how chords resolve, learn cliche chord progressions, learn what diatonic chords are in the key you are writing in- for instance: Key of C major= Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin, Bminb5. Learn how to use extended chords, ie chords that are not diatonic to the key you're in like: D7 in the key of C major. I could go on and on, there's so much to learn, kudos for wanting to.

Jon

 

[yiordanaki]

I wholeheartedly agree with the part about learning piano.

I started about a year a go , and because i already played music - which you do as well, then it starts making so much sense.

And you start seeing everything fit into place nicely.

But, then the problem comes that i write all my songs on piano now and cant do good guitar arrangements...

But, yes continue trying with the piano and a theory book.

y

 

[Skysaw]

Some good music has been written without much knowledge of theory. Look at Brian Eno's vast repertory... he knew no theory, and could barely play any instrument, but is considered a huge influence on many artists (myself included), and has worked with almost any big name in rock you can think of.

On the other hand, theory can really help you get ideas from inside your head to your song without immense hassle. It can help you listen to someone else's song, and immediately identify an idea that you can use, expand upon, or change.

Other areas of study such as counterpoint and orchestration can also be wonderful tools to expand your musical language. They can seem old-fashioned to today's modern rocker, but trust me, they can be applied in so many useful ways.

But it all comes down to what is fun to learn for you. Some people take to music theory naturally, and enjoy studying it. Even for them, it can take many years to take in all there is to learn. It's a gigantic area of study, but even a tiny bit can be enough to help you get your ideas across.

I have a page of music resourse books you can check out that may come in handy. Most of these are a bit more advanced, but take a look and see what appeals to you. http://www.allhands.com/main/resources.html

 

[Jagular]

I third the piano idea. In fact, I want to do that soon myself. After High School I started college on a music major program. To be honest, I learned more just plunking around on the piano than I did in any of the classes. Of course, my excessive drinking and lack of class attendance could have had something to do with that . I learned to play guitar and piano by myself without lessons (not all that well on either), but in that learned about chord structues and progressions etc. When I combined those self taught skills with the actual, fairly extensive, formal training I had (voice & trumpet) I was able to understand quite well how things fit together.

I am not poo-pooing theory at all. I actually wouldn't mind brushing up on it again myself. I've probably forgotten 80% of what I learned formally and mostly just play by ear. I don't think I could sight read anymore to save my life. The theory is excellent and certainly expands horizons and allows you to think of different options (ex. adding just a simple passing chord in a three chord rock song can bring it to life). So go for it. Good books (don't know of any) and studying piano are really great steps to take IMHO.

 

[Roel]

I guess, as a musictheory student, I have to reply to this thread.

Music theory can help you alot. But there's one thing you gotta consider. Starting out on musictheory will limit your creative abilities. You'll start working from within the theory, and since you just started, it will limit you in some ways. Music theory will help you understand what you do at that stage, and give you some new options, but be carefull not to stop experimenting.

It will really start to expand your horizon once it exceeds the things you know from experience already (even without realizing what you are actually doing). I can only say that once you get to the point that you can start playing from within your theory it will really help you furtheron. (Now I'm talking for example about making up chord voicings while playing, which is, finding the chordscale you're in, the tensions and avoid notes, and picking out the right combination in the middle of a progression. Alot of headaches to get there, but it's worth it.)

When you're at a certain point, writing songs becomes easy. I can write you a tune that will sound ok without even thinking about how it will sound, just based on the "mathematical" stuff. This is handy... You can get far with just being creative (and there the theory will help you to write down/realize what you are doing, give you some more options to explore), and when there's this few measures that you cannot figure out what to do with, you can throw in all yer theory and just fool around untill you have something satisfying...

And other than that, it makes you a better player too. Realizing what you are actually playing will help you not to play wrong notes, and add the right dynamics to it...

 

[powderfinger]

Starting out on musictheory will limit your creative abilities.

I know what you're getting at with this, but I would disagree.....as, the more you know the rules, the more you know how to break them.

 

[Roel]

I know what you're getting at with this, but I would disagree.....as, the more you know the rules, the more you know how to break them.

Well, that should be "Starting out on musictheory will initially limit your creative abilities" I guess. The thing is, you will tend to work from within that theory, and it'll take a while before you beyond what you would do naturally.

Learn the rules than break 'em is indeed what theory is all about. Or as Charlie Parker used to say: "learn the changes, then forget about 'em". The goal is not knowing the theory, theory will just help you achieve your 'goals' as far as any musician will ever get to any of the goals he sets for himself...

 

[Layla Nahar]

I'll add my name to the piano fan list.
I'd reccomend to start learning your scales. say the note names out loud as you play. Then nail the names and spellings of the I, IV an V triads (maj & minor scales)

Start there. That should take you a couple of weeks to get comfortable enough with. It will be a big help to get you started. If you have a good grip of the spellings, when you plonk out a chord - even if its some crazy thing, you will spend a lot less time trying to figure out "what *is* that cord?" Of course, you should learn all the chords in any given scale, but start with I, IV an V. You'll might be able to get some instant gratificatin more quickly.


ps: I'm currently reviewing my scales & chords. It's a little easier this time than when I was doing it before. Also, try & do it in your head as you fall asleep. You'l be out before the pillow gets warm!

 

[Layla Nahar]

I'll add my name to the piano fan list.
I'd reccomend to start learning your scales. say the note names out loud as you play. Then nail the names and spellings of the I, IV an V triads (maj & minor scales)

Start there. That should take you a couple of weeks to get comfortable enough with. It will be a big help to get you started. If you have a good grip of the spellings, when you plonk out a chord - even if its some crazy thing, you will spend a lot less time trying to figure out "what *is* that cord?" Of course, you should learn all the chords in any given scale, but start with I, IV an V. You'll might be able to get some instant gratificatin more quickly.


ps: I'm currently reviewing my scales & chords. It's a little easier this time than when I was doing it before. Also, try & do it in your head as you fall asleep. You'l be out before the pillow gets warm!

 

[Myx62]

I Think its always good to expand your horizons. Theory is just another way to do that. In my experience, theory works better when the person already has the motor skills to play their instrument. I probably cant remember much theory these days and cant site read to save my life. I come from the school of Van Halen, "learn all the rules and then forget about them" , A quote by Edward Van Halen. Words to live by. When you get to the point in theory that you cant listen to a song on the radio without breakin it down into keys and modes, its time to move on and make music.....
Myx

 

[blueroom]

Thank you all, for your input.

I supose it is a good idea to analyse my favourite songs about chord progression. I will discuss the results with somemone with experience.
Another step: I try to find the chordnames of my sequenced themes and maybe in what key the whole thing is. Hopefully i can find someone that can explain me the concept of what the possible chords are for the next part. Or what key i can use for a common bassline of another part.

 

[CyanJaguar]

the first thing to do if you want to write GREAT pop songs is to learn about the WILDCARD.

Once you know about the theory of the WILDCARD and know the rules of the WILDCARD then the GREAT pop songs will flow easily.

 

[Layla Nahar]

the first thing to do if you want to write GREAT pop songs is to learn about the WILDCARD.

Once you know about the theory of the WILDCARD and know the rules of the WILDCARD then the GREAT pop songs will flow easily.

care to explain? A quick search on Google turned up WAILOU (that's algerian for NOTHING -- I love that word)

 

[glynb]

Q: What should I know to write great Popsongs?


A: The right people!


Thousands of people write good pop songs, but no-one ever gets to hear them because they do not have a record deal and promotion, etc. Writing a good pop song is really not that difficult (look at some of the bozos who do it successfully and make lots of money!) and there are books which can help you.

Once you have written your great pop song then what?

Do you know anyone in the business who can open the right door for you so it can be heard by those with the power to promote it? If not, then you have an uphill struggle. Sending off demo CDs all over the place will not work we're told - so it's all down to a lucky break....

 

[Layla Nahar]

Q: What should I know to write great Popsongs?


A: The right people!

Do you know anyone in the business who can open the right door for you so it can be heard by those with the power to promote it? If not, then you have an uphill struggle.

And don't forget -- don't sleep with them BEFORE you get the hook-up!!!

 

[blueroom]

glynb

Thousands of people write good pop songs, but no-one ever gets to hear them because they do not have a record deal and promotion, etc. Writing a good pop song is really not that difficult (look at some of the bozos who do it successfully and make lots of money!) and there are books which can help you.

How to get a record deal, becoming rich and famous is my question of tomorrow!!!!. For today i'd be happy just to enjoy my first brilliant song.

 

[dafduc]

I'd suggest making sure you have something to say, the sheer idiocy of songs like Sk8er Boi notwithstanding.

I'm saying this 'cos I took theory in 1972-4, gigged from '73-'95, and didn't write my first decent song until 1996, when I started writing for the church.

Nothing of value to say before that. Not that only church songs have value, but before that I was just trying to be clever. I've written secular stuff since, but still only what moves me. the other stuff just doesn't hold up.

Surprisingly, this was true on the musical end as well. I've written some decent melodies (and some GREAT chord changes ), that stuff never used to come when I had nothing to say.

Dunno if it's true for everyone, but true in spades for me...

Daf

 

[Jamal Bucket]

theory shmeory.....
feel it ...write it down.....rewrite ....rewrite.....rewrite....



most songs i have written that were any good fell out of my mouth and fingers in a single night...then it was a matter of final touches here and there over the next few days.....NOW THE MIX on the other hand....THAT could take months...lol