Music theory

[RAK]

Theory is very important, no matter what you do. Music (including guitar) is just like any other discipline, and to do it right, you need to study. Specifically to guitar, you'll be better off if you learn to read music, and not just tab. And it will open you up to be able to play with more people, so if someone says to you, hey let's transpose this key up a step and end on the sub-dominant, then you'll know what to do.
I've play with some guitar players who can play a song and sing all right, but they don't know a middle C from a Banana, and I find it really difficult to accomplish something when you don't speak the same language.
So sure, you can become a sweet guitar player without learning all the theory, but not a great musician.


Edit: I just read what DementedChord wrote above me there, so I guess I just echoed his sentiments without realizing it. And it brings up another point,
You can't break the rules until you know what they are. Word.

 

[ofajen]

I will just add one more thought:

Music theories in all musical traditions address three key aspects of all music: harmony, melody and rhythm. There are harmonic techniques you can learn, as has been discussed here a bit. There are also different traditions of melodic techniques, such as the motivic techniques for using the same melodic fragment in various ways to create variety and yet a sense of unity of the whole. And each musical culture has made its own contributions to rhythmic techniques. All of these are applicable to guitar.

Cheers,

Otto

 

[Jouni]

Yes, when you're talking someone through a song, you need the language. That is if you are gonna do a lot of talking.

Here comes the mudslide of neg rep but...

..Yes, the scales are important.
I'm one of those who can't tell middle C from a banana. As a bassist, I get the lines easily by ear. And when playing guitar I compose by ear.
I know major, minor and pentatonic, but can play to a frinds tune which, i've been told.. is chromatic. And my ears are shot by heavy machinery.
Hate to be the first to take a hit here, but playing a couple of hours with friends, learning to hear what you can play against something, will be just as valuable, if not more, than knowing the exact name of the chord in question.
But ofcourse, if completely starting, some basic chords and a couple of scales is a necessity.

 

[Big Kenny]

Yes, when you're talking someone through a song, you need the language. That is if you are gonna do a lot of talking.

Here comes the mudslide of neg rep but...

..Yes, the scales are important.
I'm one of those who can't tell middle C from a banana. As a bassist, I get the lines easily by ear. And when playing guitar I compose by ear.
I know major, minor and pentatonic, but can play to a frinds tune which, i've been told.. is chromatic. And my ears are shot by heavy machinery.
Hate to be the first to take a hit here, but playing a couple of hours with friends, learning to hear what you can play against something, will be just as valuable, if not more, than knowing the exact name of the chord in question.
But ofcourse, if completely starting, some basic chords and a couple of scales is a necessity.

This will work for the short term but will drastically limit your creativity and writing ability. You will certainly not get work in Nashville where you need to read charts (these are numbers not written music)

 

[Sirnothingness]

There's a balance to everything. You don't have to become a theory guru, but learning some basic principals will certainly help you, if you practice them. Do you need to know the name of the chord you're playing, or what notes it contains? Maybe not, but knowing that can help you construct a cool phrase to go along with it. I feel that not having any grasp of theory can lead you to replaying the same old crap over and over.

 

[Codmate]

This will work for the short term but will drastically limit your creativity and writing ability. You will certainly not get work in Nashville where you need to read charts (these are numbers not written music)

Exactly.

If somebody asks you to play a VI chord in the key of C with a diminished sixth, you need to know what the hell they are on about.

If you just play for kicks, no problem, learn as much or as little you want to. If you plan to take it further, even as a hobby, you'll *want* to learn more

 

[Codmate]

There's a balance to everything. You don't have to become a theory guru, but learning some basic principals will certainly help you, if you practice them. Do you need to know the name of the chord you're playing, or what notes it contains? Maybe not, but knowing that can help you construct a cool phrase to go along with it. I feel that not having any grasp of theory can lead you to replaying the same old crap over and over.

I know a lot of what I call 'pattern players' - just playing the blues box every night. It gets boring for the audience after a few shows and it gets boring for the guitarist too.

Their fingers just seem to fall into the same old patterns over and over again. Safe licks that they know will work...

It's a shame...

I used to play like this a lot as a teenager. When you first learn the pentatonic and a few passing notes it seems like magic. It works over everything! Listening back to recordings I made in those days, I had no idea how often I was putting the same intervals together, playing the same shit over and over again...

Don't get me wrong,
You can play the pentatonic all night, and be a great player. But I think you need some special kind of magic to keeping an audience's (and your own) interest doing that all the time. Very few can do it well.

Far easier to learn how to vary what you're doing using your ear alongside the theory, backing you up and helping you translate what you hear into your head into a reality

 

[XLR]

I agree with a lot of what's been said.

Good to make sure that each bit of knowledge you learn in theory is first learned by sound. Audiation (hearing the sounds in your mind's ear) is everything, and without it anything you learn about intervals, scales, harmony, voice leading, etc, is disconnected from your sense of musicality.

Those with a very high natural aptitude for audiation tend to do this easily and automatically but the average person doesn't, and having heaps of terminology describing voice leading and harmonic relationships dumped on a person all at once is a major cause of "theory terror", heh-heh.

Singing the sounds you're learning about is the best way to develop audiation. College music majors typically spend lots of class hours singing scale and interval exercises in freshman musicianship classes as a prerequisite to harmony and counterpoint courses, and that's a good thing.

 

[danny.guitar]

Thanks for all the great responses.

I've already memorized the major scale pattern, so I've been working with the minor scale a little.

I'm trying to keep all your advice in mind while learning this complicated theory stuff...and I already ordered one of the books from Amazon.

One quick question...

Until now, I've basically learned how to "solo" over stuff by learning other people's solos. After awhile I kind of picked up on a pattern that I could move along the neck depending on what key the song was in.

I've used basically this same pattern since then.

I also noticed I could shift everything up a couple frets and I'd get a "blues" sound.

I never really knew why, or what you would call these patterns. I'm guessing they're just scales? Maybe you can tell me...

 

[Sirnothingness]

The first pic looks like a C maj scale. The second one looks like C minor pent. A C blues scale would be the minor pent with a flatted 5th added to it (Gb). You can easily find two of them in that basic box pattern.

There are other variations but we'll just leave it at that for now.

 

[RAK]

Thanks for all the great responses.

I've already memorized the major scale pattern, so I've been working with the minor scale a little.

I'm trying to keep all your advice in mind while learning this complicated theory stuff...and I already ordered one of the books from Amazon.

So the next step, in my opinion, is not to just memorize the pattern on the guitar, but actually learn what notes make up that scale. Getting into that level and beyond is what will transform you from a guitar player into a musician.

Keep up the good work!

 

[leddy]

I think you also have to consider what you want out of music in your life. You will look kind of silly if you are 45 years old banging out Nirvana covers in some dive.

Your musical tastes change as you age. The more you know, the more prepared you will be to shift gears. 15-20 years ago I was playing rock in crappy bars for no money. Today, I work about 75-85 gigs a year playing jazz, and I average about $125 per gig. It's a great part-time career that I can do for the rest of my life.

The more prepared you are, the more choices you'll have.

 

[tc4b]

I'd also like to be able to come up with more interesting progressions that involve chords other than just the basic major/minor and 7th.

I remembered this thread in my car today when They Might Be Giants came on the ipod. If you're interested in more interesting chord progressions, take a close look at what these guys do. I'm guessing a lot of people on a guitar farum aren't big fans, it can sound corny, but they know what they are doing theory-wise. At first listen, it seems like very simple music. But just try following along a few songs, and you'll quickly realize that some of their stuff is very complex. What I really admire about them is the way they make it SEEM simple. Start transcribing.

 

[metalhead28]

From a different point of view, the first image is the C major scale (ionian) the second image is C Minor (aeolian). It's the same fingering because you're changing positions, but by moving a couple notes (changing intervals) in the first pattern, you could play that minor scale in the same position.

If you study the intervals of the major scale, which is what you're using in the first image there, and then learn what is different about the intervals in other modes (usually just 2 or 3 notes) you'll really be on to something! That's when you'll really start playing with intervals and note to note relationships instead of mindless fingering patterns.

 

[RAK]

From a different point of view, the first image is the C major scale (ionian) the second image is C Minor (aeolian). It's the same fingering because you're changing positions, but by moving a couple notes (changing intervals) in the first pattern, you could play that minor scale in the same position.

If you study the intervals of the major scale, which is what you're using in the first image there, and then learn what is different about the intervals in other modes (usually just 2 or 3 notes) you'll really be on to something! That's when you'll really start playing with intervals and note to note relationships instead of mindless fingering patterns.

But they are not just major and minor scales. They are pentatonic scales (5 notes).
Although the 2nd one is written strangely, starting on Bb. Major Pentatonic scales remove the 4th and the 7th.

C Major Pentatonic Scale: C-D-E-G-A-(C)
C Minor Pentatonic Scale: C-Eb-F-G-Bb-(C) Notice this is the same as an Eb Major Pentatonic Scale, just starting on C (Eb is the relative Major to C Minor)
C Minor Blues Scale would be (as Sirnothingness said) something like: C-Eb-F-(Gb)-G-Bb-(C)

C Ionian Scale is a C major Scale C-D-E-F-G-A-B-(C)
C Aeolian is like a C natural minor Scale C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-(C)
But I think modes are way beyond this discussion.

 

[XLR]

But they are not just major and minor scales. They are pentatonic scales (5 notes).
Although the 2nd one is written strangely, starting on Bb. Major Pentatonic scales remove the 4th and the 7th.

C Major Pentatonic Scale: C-D-E-G-A-(C)
C Minor Pentatonic Scale: C-Eb-F-G-Bb-(C) Notice this is the same as an Eb Major Pentatonic Scale, just starting on C (Eb is the relative Major to C Minor)
C Minor Blues Scale would be (as Sirnothingness said) something like: C-Eb-F-(Gb)-G-Bb-(C)

C Ionian Scale is a C major Scale C-D-E-F-G-A-B-(C)
C Aeolian is like a C natural minor Scale C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-(C)
But I think modes are way beyond this discussion.

Yep. Pentatonic major and pent minor. Good scales to know for improv. But written out in a confusing way (not identifying the tonic).

 

[mshilarious]

I would avoid learning music theory from a guitar perspective. Guitarists focus too much on scales and modes primarily as fuel for soloing. It's a temporary fix for avoiding the common patterns of the pentatonic scale, but the end result is the same.

Try something like learning the rules of four-part harmony. You will see there is almost NO proper harmony in popular music. Apply these concepts to your guitar and bass riffs (in small doses), and you'll have something unique.

 

[amethyst_fan]

I would avoid learning music theory from a guitar perspective. Guitarists focus too much on scales and modes primarily as fuel for soloing. It's a temporary fix for avoiding the common patterns of the pentatonic scale, but the end result is the same.

Try something like learning the rules of four-part harmony. You will see there is almost NO proper harmony in popular music. Apply these concepts to your guitar and bass riffs (in small doses), and you'll have something unique.

Hmm, well I don't know that popular music needs proper harmony. And I would even venture to say that it is popular or more specifically "pop" music that follow four part harmony quite accurately often times. This is because most pop music tunes are written by an actual composer, that has studied composition, and probably has more musical knowledge than Dream Theater. Then after all that hard work, they of course produce a song for Christina Aguilera to sing.
Was it worth it? Of course! The pop song sells 10 million copies and little girlies go wild for it!

Now, if you talk about more knowledgable musicians, such as those in genres such as metal and various kinds of rock, do they follow voice leading and four part harmony rules? No. Hardly ever. Which one is more impressive usually? hmm, hehe, I think I'll pass listening to genie in a bottle again.

The old rules of voice leading and four part harmony are no longer valid in modern music, it might be for the better, or for the worse, but there would be no power chords if we were still following the rules of Mozart...

 

[ez_willis]

I never really knew why, or what you would call these patterns. I'm guessing they're just scales? Maybe you can tell me...

If you knew theory, you would know why.

You asking these questions tells me that you have a thirst for knowledge and a love for music that won't soon be quenched.

You are probably like many of us who have been playing music most of our lives, and will continue to play music until we physically can't play anymore, the entire time learning and growing and picking up new instruments.

 

[ez_willis]

Now, if you talk about more knowledgable musicians, such as those in genres such as metal and various kinds of rock, do they follow voice leading and four part harmony rules? No. Hardly ever....

The first thing I thought of was Alice in Chains, probably because I was listening Sap last night. That record is full of beautiful harmonies.

And how in the hell can you even suggest that knowledgable musicians purposely avoid harmonies? The reason the bands that you're listening to aren't using vocal harmonies is because they're incapable of them.