Music Theory question...

[jdblessing1970]

I'm trying to expand my horizons to go from "Lyricist" to "Songwriter" and for that, I have to write music. In order to do so, I purchased "Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory" for a start. I have a few melodies in my head for lyrics I've written and co-written, but am having a hard time writing them down on paper. Granted, a big part is my lack of "ear training", knowing what notes it is I'm hearing in my head. I haven't quite wrapped my head around how to tell what key a particular melody is in. The book doesn't quite explain that to my satisfaction. Best I can tell is I need to first figure out what notes are in the melody, then figure out what key it is by what notes are regularly flat or sharp. Problem being that most music-writing software wants to know the key before I begin writing. Is there any easy solution to this, or just practice and experience?

 

[mikeh]

Since I don't know how much you know about instruments - vs. writing lyrics - I don't know if this will help you or not.....but:

Often, you can determine the key of a song by the chord progression. Often, the first chord indicates the key - and even more often, the last chord indicates the key (since the chord progression and melody often need to resolve to the root).

Many times, the key of the song may be the note that the melody depends on the most - although that is not as much a given and certainly can be harder to establish than using the chord progression.

By the way.....I think that Idoit's Guide is a relatively decent bough to gain a general understanding of theory. Basic theory is not too hard to grasp and should be considered mandatory for any musician/composer.

 

[dementedchord]

what instrument if any do you play??? can you play the melody on that instrument... and the key maynot be all that important anyway... you can always change the key later.... start to develope a sense of intervalic relationships with notes... in college one of the beginer tricks is to find songs that start with a particular sound... then whenever you need to reference to something you can use that song for an example... for instance NBC news used to have a sign off phrase that was three bells... the first interval was a maj6th ascending... followed by a decending maj3rd... and everybody knew the sound of *N *B *C... ya follow????

 

[pseudosun]

there aren't rules for songwriting, and sometimes the key can change during the melody. Just learn how chords work with each other, and play over some progressions in a certain key. Just mix it all up with single notes within that key. Also, when you think of a jingle, commercial, or anything that you can hum, play it on single notes. It's a good feeling My approach has always been not trying to write. When i hit on a musical idea when jamming, i develop it. After i have a rough version down, i'll start jotting down lyrics while listening. I don't think i could write lyrics first, or the melody first, but that's just me.

 

[DSMC]

Best ways to determine key signature:
1) In most cases the melody ends on the tonic (root note of the scale). If a melody ends on G, odds are it's in G (you can tell major vs. minor by the sound of it)
2) Your way also works
3) Put a chord progression under it and determine the key based on the chords

 

[SEDstar]

...

the best way I ever found for getting a melody idea (bum-bah-BUM-bah...) thats in my head down onto the computer?

I mainly use Pentatonic minor, and assign a "nashville number system" in my head for any ideas... its easier to think of that way.

I can then jot down 1-3-2-4-5-3-4-2-1 for my melody idea. I get home, I do it first in C minor... then if it sounds "really not close" I start moving it up thru the other 11 "roots positions" until I am close...

My best advice would be to start out in Pent Minor, as its easiest to work with at first.

I make everything in C minor at first, then once it starts coming, I run it thru the other 11 roots, to see "where it wants to be". One or two usually stand out.

 

[Whatmysay]

"nashville number system"

Hey SEDstar what is that 'nashville number system'? How does it work? When you say Pentatonic minor - do you mean 5 note blues scale or something more Asian/African in sound?

I agree with all above - chords, intervals and end notes of a melody will all direct you to the key.

 

[jdblessing1970]

Thanks for all the advice. As for what instrument I play, right now, none. I do own a keyboard but I don't really "know" how to play it. I hear a note in my head, and press keys until I think I've found a match.

Finding the "key" of a song by the chords is all fine and dandy, however I was hoping to find the chords by finding the key. Figured if I can find the Key, I can find chords, and if I can find chords, I can get the melody "right". The book says to try to stay in one key and use the notes of that key. Hard to stay within notes of a key if one doesn't know what key it is in in the first place. Part of my problem is that there are sections of my melody that I KNOW don't sound right. I writing in key of C for starters, but I know some of the notes should be either flat or sharp because they just don't sound right as is.

I'm sure as the concepts start to soak in as I practice and play around with things I'll get better at it...it's just a bit frustrating to begin with. I want to be able to do it all, and do it all NOW.

 

[dementedchord]

just sing it to yourself... and when it's firm in your head try to change it into a major scale... you know do re mi etc... even if it's some minor or modal it should still outline some major key...

 

[dogonjon]

It's all in your head

just sing it to yourself... and when it's firm in your head try to change it into a major scale... you know do re mi etc... even if it's some minor or modal it should still outline some major key...

I agree, music theory, sight reading, ear training, intervals, transcription and analysis all have a common feature, you use your head. To truly understand music you have to format a portion of your brain to visualize musical tones. You can hum scales, intervals and melodies but unless your mind has clear pathways to process musical information it will be confused. The physical process of creating tones is different from processing musical information. It takes discipline to visualize tones, pitches and their relationship to written music. You can go to tons of music classes to learn about theory. However, you need to create and practice your own lessons to make the mental connections you will need to comprehend music as it is written and played. It's a mental exercise done in silence.

 

[Nicole_Rose]

i would suggest that you learn an instrument. piano or guitar. then you can learn the theory while learning your instrument. once you're competent on your instrument you can accompany yourself.

and if that isn't palatable then take singing lessons. they will teach you the theory while making your voice the best it can be.

 

[Oancient1]

I do own a keyboard but I don't really "know" how to play it. I hear a note in my head, and press keys until I think I've found a match.

Well then start learning the some chords here

I would recommend first learning to play all the major and minor chords in the key of C major:

Cmaj Dm Em Fmaj Gmaj Am Bdim

(don't worry too much about the diminished (dim) chord at this point -- you likely won't need one of those)

The chords in the key of C major are based on the notes of the C major scale, and are the easiest - white keys only. (Other major scale's notes and other major key's chords use one or black keys, which can get to be a pain in the ass. If later on you can't get a handle on that, you might want to switch to guitar.)

Oh yeah .... If you like sad songs, then try the key of A minor which has the same chords but in a different order:

Am Bdim Cmaj Dm Em Fmaj Gmaj

Finally, once you have a handle on chords, this handy gadget can help you keep track of what chords make up a key.

Have fun.

 

[jdblessing1970]

i would suggest that you learn an instrument. piano or guitar. then you can learn the theory while learning your instrument. once you're competent on your instrument you can accompany yourself.

and if that isn't palatable then take singing lessons. they will teach you the theory while making your voice the best it can be.

In other words, I'm trying to do it all at once and it's better to take it one step at a time, right? Was wondering if that might be my problem.

 

[pseudosun]

yeah, learn an instrument, and it will become clearer. Learn how to play a C major scale with single notes (c d e f g a b), and a pentatonic scale (c d e g a), and play those notes over chords in the key of C. Those chords were mentioned above. Make your own rhythms and progressions, and start playing some notes. One progression could be A minor, G, F, G. If you want to expand a little, learn to play that scale in different positions starting on a D, E, G and A. If you are using that pentatonic scale, try bending the strings for fun solo action Hell bend 'em in the major scale if you want.

 

[pseudosun]

here's a little single note challenge for you. (the periods mean "hold the previous note for about a second")

C..........G, C, A...........E, A.............C...........D, G, C

name that tune


jeez, you made me start playing my geetar. This may or may not be right. The musicians here can correct me; i'm just hummin here. The beatles opening of The Long and Winding Road > The (B) Long (C) And (B) Wind (G) ing (E) Road (A)

If you keep single noting the vocal line, you'll hit an A#; i did. A haaa....key change.

 

[fraserhutch]

Well, sort of, but not really, the Bb (A#) is the 7th of the V7 /IV. of that point

here's a little single note challenge for you. (the periods mean "hold the previous note for about a second")

C..........G, C, A...........E, A.............C...........D, G, C

name that tune


jeez, you made me start playing my geetar. This may or may not be right. The musicians here can correct me; i'm just hummin here. The beatles opening of The Long and Winding Road > The (B) Long (C) And (B) Wind (G) ing (E) Road (A)

If you keep single noting the vocal line, you'll hit an A#; i did. A haaa....key change.

 

[pseudosun]

ahh yeah. i didn't even know the chords when that tune popped in my head.

 

[Strat1958]

If you don't play an instrument and don't know what key you are humming in, go to jamstudio.com and play with the instruments there. They are real loops of real instruments that you can paste together into a song. It's pretty cool. I'm a multi-instrumentalist but I still find it fun to play with when initially assembling a new song.

Here are a couple of my own songs, 100% jamstudio accompaniment, except for the short acoustic guitar solo on Time For Rain.

Time For Rain

Goodbye My Friend

Maybe this will help you. Good luck.

Mike

BTW, I'm not affiliated with jamstudio in any way, just trying to help someone who doesn't play an instrument!

 

[SongJohn]

Music theory is a son-of-agun!