Multi band or other compression to even out cymbal performances?

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Kapo_Polenton

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Something that is stumping me and I have been googling for the better part of this evening.. is a multi band compressor what I would want to work with if I have a left and right drum overhead mic setup and I want to bring some consistency to the volume peaks in the performance? So for instance I hit the cymbal harder in a few spots and I wish to tame this so it more or less is perceived as an even performance, how does one approach compression to do this? Obviously I want to concentrate on the upper frequencies which affect cymbals and not the lower end but can someone explain to me how threshold and attack would relate to my situation? IThanks!
 
You want some velocity differences in the hits, instead of always even.....but if they are that much off that it's bothersome, you may want to focus on your playing technique then before adding a multi-band compressor to fix it.

Also....consider adjusting your OH mics to improve the overall balance....or you can even change the position of the cymbals a bit....one a little higher, one a little lower...etc.
Point is....try to fix it BEFORE it's recorded instead of after.
 
You could just use a normal compressor. I dunno why you'd need a multiband if all you're trying to do is level out the performance.

Of course, Miro's suggestion is always the best route.
 
If your kit is still set up, then drop your self in, if you can on those spots.
Failing that, actual level automation and or a chop then a Gain change.
Also do not forget the good old fade as a compressor trick. Cut your crash/room just before the attack,
then select a fade that actually knocks off the sharp peak of it. Once you got that right (with a few undo's and try again's)
then consolidate again. No one will ever pick it. Also check your other tracks for cymbal spike bleed.
 
miroslav said:
You want some velocity differences in the hits, instead of always even.....but if they are that much off that it's bothersome, you may want to focus on your playing technique.
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^^^^^This^^^^

Everything else is just silly clown-fuckery (one of my favorite GregL phrases). :)
 
RAMI said:
^^^^^This^^^^

Everything else is just silly clown-fuckery (one of my favorite GregL phrases). :)
Click to expand...

Lol. Some of the ideas that get floated around in here make me throw up in my mouth a little.
 
miroslav said:
You want some velocity differences in the hits, instead of always even.....but if they are that much off that it's bothersome, you may want to focus on your playing technique then before adding a multi-band compressor to fix it.

Also....consider adjusting your OH mics to improve the overall balance....or you can even change the position of the cymbals a bit....one a little higher, one a little lower...etc.
Point is....try to fix it BEFORE it's recorded instead of after.
Click to expand...

Good info here in the replies.. after some trial and error, I found the right spot (or rather what i feel is the right spot) for my OH last week. The problem might be that one of the crashes is just louder than the other. This takes considerable effort to watch how I hit it. That's fine I can work with that. I just felt that in spots, this specific cymbals was pounding through more than I'd like and if you've gone through a good take and then there are a few hits which ruin it, it's a total bummer. I thought the multi band compressor would come in handy because I don't want to affect the overall kit that comes through in the OH (snare, toms), just thought focusing on the frequency bands in use by the cymbals and trying to squash a little there might help out. I guess this is why you often hear about thinner crashes or "fast" acting crashes used in studios. Cymbals that complement each other in mixes and on the kit.
 
Kapo_Polenton said:
I guess this is why you often hear about thinner crashes or "fast" acting crashes used in studios. Cymbals that complement each other in mixes and on the kit.
Click to expand...

Tastes run way different when it comes to crashes.....but yeah, when I was selecting crash cymbals, I did a lot of trial & error looking for the right combination for the studio kit. I think I turned over at least a dozen or more cymbals, and I went with few thin & paper thin crashes, and some dark/custom crash cymbals. I also put them in specific positions relative to the kit, and had to coax my drummer a bit, as he wanted them more in the center, and I wanted them more off to the sides, but we found the right spots.
I like crash cymbals that cut through the mix with sizzle, but not too rudely, and then die out fast.

That said, there are guys that use loud, rock crashes in the studio...the stuff you would want for a typical bar/club band so they can really cut through...and they make them work just fine.
So position, mics, experimentation and yeah....you might even have to make playing adjustments....like knowing how hard you want to hit a cymbal or a hat so that it translates well for a recording.
 
I was listening to some of the other rough cuts I did over the weekend and in spots where i didn't go nuts on my power hand (to my right, the crash just above my ride), the two tonal sounds the cymbals produce, are perfect.. the splash pops up now and again a little too much but that is definitely dynamics because i get excited. So essentially what i am understanding is that if I watch the dynamics, there should really be very little need for compression on the overheads and that the bulk of editing here would most likely be EQ and volume balance, is this correct?

Also, just as a side note, I also played with replacing the kick and snare with samples from EZ drummer and to be honest, I hated it. Too perfect sounding, too much in my face. Had to gate the snare and kick and it was terrible at picking up dynamics in that it played every snare hit at the same volume. Even with midi editing i was reminded why i never liked it before. Everything is too linear, too perfect. I also liked the sounds of my toms with some EQ and verb better. Crashes also sound too perfect. I guess this is where dynamics and slight volume or timing differences in the cymbal decay make it more realistic than a sample. I can see a use for blending samples with real audio from the kit but beyond that, think I'll just stick with the real deal despite the GF rolling her eyes at the noise and wondering why i didn't get it right the first 5 times...
 
Kapo_Polenton said:
I also played with replacing the kick and snare with samples from EZ drummer and to be honest, I hated it. Too perfect sounding, too much in my face. Had to gate the snare and kick and it was terrible at picking up dynamics in that it played every snare hit at the same volume. Even with midi editing i was reminded why i never liked it before. Everything is too linear, too perfect. I also liked the sounds of my toms with some EQ and verb better. Crashes also sound too perfect.
Click to expand...


Mmmmmmm....not sure how your using EZD to "replace" kick and snare, since EZD isn't a drum replacement app (like say, SS Trigger)
If you somehow just pulled the raw samples out of EZ...then yeah, chances are there would be no velocity differences.

I don't use EZD all that much, but I do use Superior Drummer, and there's quite a bit of "human" touch assigned randomly to hits....so hits actually don't all have the same velocity, or the same timing. Samples sound quite natural when used through the player...you just have to select the desired flavors. Also, the original EZD was/is a bit lacking in "depth"....you have to get some add-on sample packs, but the real deal is Superior Drummer. It gives you raw samples from the direct recordings, and the SD player has even more "human" touch capability than EZD.
The new EZD2 has a lot of improvements on EZD1 based on what people are saying.
 
RAMI said:
^^^^^This^^^^

Everything else is just silly clown-fuckery (one of my favorite GregL phrases). :)
Click to expand...
Please point to the everything else? So we can understand your statement with facts.
 
RAMI said:
If you can't read what was stated in this thread, then all the explanation in the world won't help you. :)
Click to expand...

Yeah your right I cant read or write. Still cant see the facts that point to everything else being nonsense.
 
miroslav said:
Mmmmmmm....not sure how your using EZD to "replace" kick and snare, since EZD isn't a drum replacement app (like say, SS Trigger)
If you somehow just pulled the raw samples out of EZ...then yeah, chances are there would be no velocity differences.

I don't use EZD all that much, but I do use Superior Drummer, and there's quite a bit of "human" touch assigned randomly to hits....so hits actually don't all have the same velocity, or the same timing. Samples sound quite natural when used through the player...you just have to select the desired flavors. Also, the original EZD was/is a bit lacking in "depth"....you have to get some add-on sample packs, but the real deal is Superior Drummer. It gives you raw samples from the direct recordings, and the SD player has even more "human" touch capability than EZD.
The new EZD2 has a lot of improvements on EZD1 based on what people are saying.
Click to expand...

I was using reagate in reaper to gate the kick and snare and then I mapped it to midi to trigger the midi note that corresponds to the keyboard roll/ positions of each part of the drum kit. There was a "humanize" feature on EZ1 but I am not sure whether or not it is in play when i use the interface this way. I figured it might work if i just doubled the track and applied the triggered sound to one so that they could be blended but overall, wasn't too thrilled with the sounds. It is just the bare bones EZ1 though, none of the extras. I have read that EZ is great for those who don't have a drummer where as Superior is well, "superior" when it comes to the samples..
 
You can use a normal compressor with a fast attack and a release that pumps with the tempo.

The big problem is that the cymbals you hit harder will still sound like you hit them harder, even if you make them the same volume.

If you smash the overheads with the compressor, however, it will take away the attack and you will be left with the 'bloom' of the cymbal. Some people like that and other people don't. It tends to work better when you have the cymbals farther back in the mix.
 
Synthzizer said:
Yeah your right I cant read or write. Still cant see the facts that point to everything else being nonsense.
Click to expand...

Dude, there's a difference between "Everything else everyone's said in this thread is silly clown fuckery..." and "Everything else is silly clown fuckery..."

And it's his opinion. If you think differently, argue your case. We're listening. That's what makes the place interesting... :thumbs up:

But you'll see that the OP's come in with a "how do I fix it in the mix?" question and the classic, all time #1 top of the charts answer is "Don't, play it again if you can"... :)
 
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