muffled snare

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dangary

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I'm having trouble recording a decent sound from my snare. The snare itself sounds OK, but once it is recorded it sounds muffled and really bland. I have experimented with different mic distances to negate the proximity effect, but it seems that I have to move the snare further than I would like to get the mud to go away. (To the point where the snare is not isolated at all and I'm getting too much of the rest of the kit.) I have tried cutting the lows down a lot, but the result was a muffled snare with no punch - even worse! I have used an sm-57 and an akg 1000 and both seem to give similar results. I have heard many live shows where someone just clipped a sm57 to the snare, two inches from the head and it sounded good. I'm not looking for a dynamite sound here, (though I'll take it if I ever get it!) just something good that will pass the smell test. I am using a presonus firestudio with (gasp) cubase LE. I don't have any external preamps. Thanks in advance!
 
a close mic'd snare doesnt always sound like the snare. When you hit it you hear room ambiance. Try using two mics, or overheads to get the sound you want.
 
I'll second- you'll get alot of your snare "sound" from the overheads. If you have an extra mic, I'd also suggest micing the bottom in addition to the top- just flip the phase either at your preamp or in your software. That will give you the "crack" of the snares. You probably dont want too much of that, but blend to taste...
Hope that helps...
 
You need to mic the bottom of the snare also. You'll get the "thump" sound from a 57 on the top head and you'll get the high "slap" of the snares hitting the bottom head with a mic on the bottom, preferably a 57 or something of the sort. Blend the 2 to perfection. Without the bottom, you'll only have the lifeless dull "thump", which is where I think you're at.
 
jimmy77611 said:
You need to mic the bottom of the snare also. You'll get the "thump" sound from a 57 on the top head and you'll get the high "slap" of the snares hitting the bottom head with a mic on the bottom, preferably a 57 or something of the sort. Blend the 2 to perfection. Without the bottom, you'll only have the lifeless dull "thump", which is where I think you're at.
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haha, yeah, what he said. Ultimately, your snare sound will be a mix of your overheads, your top mic and your bottom mic (and to a much less extent, the bleed you get in all the other mics).
 
jimmy77611 said:
You need to mic the bottom of the snare also......Without the bottom, you'll only have the lifeless dull "thump", which is where I think you're at.
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That's a matter of opinion, not fact. You don't "NEED" to mic the bottom of your snare to get a good snare sound.

As was mentioned elsewhere above, a majority of your sound should come from your overheads.
 
I actually don't like the sound of a bottom snare mic.
 
RAMI said:
That's a matter of opinion, not fact. You don't "NEED" to mic the bottom of your snare to get a good snare sound.

As was mentioned elsewhere above, a majority of your sound should come from your overheads.
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To me it is a matter of fact depending upon the type and sound of snare you use and what sound you're going for. I use a 13x6.5 snare, and with only a top mic, all I get is a dull thud also. I agree that a bottom snare mic sounds bad if it's too loud or by itself, but blended in nicely, it can sound great.
 
RAMI said:
:eek::eek::eek:


Nobody's arguing that. But there's a difference between saying that, and saying you NEED one to get a good snare sound. It can also sound great to not have a bottom mic.:)
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My advise was given based upon the assumption that he probably has a similar snare sound to my own, and this method has worked well for me. My advise was not the end-all be-all for all snare sounds.

I agree that a great snare sound can be achieved without a bottom mic, in a lot of situations.

I should have said "You should try miking the bottom of the snare" instead of "You need to mic the bottom of the snare" Poor choice of wording on my part.
 
I have recorded many great snare sound with just the top mic, usually a sm57 just above the rim. However it is always nice to have a bottom snare mic, I usually use a small condenser.

Put the bottom mic out of phase with the top mic, roll off low bass and sometimes some of the low. Sometimes I have a gate on this bottom mic that is triggered by the top snare mic, this cuts out the snare rattle between hits. Now blend some of this mic into the snare sound until it sounds how you want it. You will notice that the bottom mic on it's own often sounds like crap, but adds to the top mic sound when blended together.

The overheads add the rest (actually about 80%) of the snare sound, they are important as is the room that you are recording in.

Also the snare must sound good to start with and be tuned properly with good skins and the drummer must be able to play the drums.

Cheers

Alan.
 
I've had the exact same problem described by the OP. It seems no matter what I do, the top snare mic (mine is also a 57) sounds like total ass by itself, and not remotely like a snare drum.

I've had some success using the top/bottom technique described here, and I've also had success with relying on overheads to capture a lifelike sound. Since I have a very limited selection of mics available, I usually record takes with at least 2 different mic arrangements (invariably, one of these will include the top/bottom method) and go with the one that sounds best.
 
I have recorded a bottom snare mic on about 2 of the last 100 albums I have recorded and when i am mixing a record first thing I will usually do is mute the bottom snare mic (it rarely gets turned back on). I get the excitement of the snare from the overheads and the close mic is used to add body (and feed separate reverb).

If miking the top of the snare is not getting good results, try miking the shell, it can often give you a good balance of the top and bottom sound.
 
Ronan said:
If miking the top of the snare is not getting good results, try miking the shell, it can often give you a good balance of the top and bottom sound.
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+1 Yes sir. An often overlooked strategy that often works.
 
dangary said:
I'm having trouble recording a decent sound from my snare. The snare itself sounds OK, but once it is recorded it sounds muffled and really bland.
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First things first: The snare sounds OK on it's own. Make the snare sound killer on it's own. If you start with a killer snare and make an extraordinary mess of the recording, you probably will end up with at least an OK snare. But we're not going to make an extraordinary mess of the recording. :D Seriously, I spend at least an hour auditioning different snares, tuning, muffling, moving the whole kit around the room, before I even think about picking up a microphone. And this is after years of learning how to get the sound I want. Expect to spend much longer.
I have experimented with different mic distances to negate the proximity effect, but it seems that I have to move the snare further than I would like to get the mud to go away. (To the point where the snare is not isolated at all and I'm getting too much of the rest of the kit.)
Click to expand...
Isolation is overrated. If your sound is better with bleed, go with the bleed. Monitor in real time (as far away from the kit as you can get your speakers) as somebody else moves mics around slowly.
I have tried cutting the lows down a lot, but the result was a muffled snare with no punch - even worse! I have used an sm-57 and an akg 1000 and both seem to give similar results.
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If you have to use EQ to make a mic input acceptable, back up because something is wrong. But if you spent the time described above to make your sound killer in the room, you are probably not having this problem right now. :)
I have heard many live shows where someone just clipped a sm57 to the snare, two inches from the head and it sounded good.
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At a live show you are hearing a ton of sound coming off the snare itself or bleeding through the singer's mic. Use a room mic in addition to your overheads to get this on a recording. If you don't have enough tracks/inputs/mics, ditch the overheads before you ditch the room mic. Hell, ditch the snare mic before you ditch the room mic. Except for the exceptions, of course. :D
I'm not looking for a dynamite sound here, (though I'll take it if I ever get it!) just something good that will pass the smell test.
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Anyway, at the end of the day everything I wrote is secondary. If you put Billy Martain or John Fishman on a $30 junker kit in a crap room you still probably couldn't screw up the recording if you tried. The guy doing the actual pounding is how you get the snare at the right volume ringing with a nice tone and cutting through the cymbals.
 
Chibi Nappa said:
... First things first: The snare sounds OK on it's own. Make the snare sound killer on it's own...
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That's so basic but I get the feeling it's overlooked all the time.

To me that's the basis of recording - start with killer everything - "really, really good" isn't any good, great is.

I use a '64 Ludwig Supra and a 50's Getsch snare, and I love them. Most drums I try, and especially cymbals, are not very good.

If you start with great everything - snare, guitar, singer etc the rest seems to take care of itself, and my gut is that that's the main problem.

If the snare needs a bottom mic, why wouldn't you hear that at the set since you're above the snare when you play?

I've recorded my drumset, not that I'd recommend it, with 1 U87 and actually loved the sound except it was obviously mono. To me if it can't sound good and completely balanced with one mic either the drummer or drummer are off.
 
OP, have you checked the phase relationship between your snare and overheads?
 
What is the floor like under the kit? Often, if you have a soft floor (carpet is the worst), it will muffle the reflections from the snares on the bottom, and the snare comes off sounding like a bad tom. You can put a mic under the snare, but then the sound doesn't reflect off the floor and come back to the top snare mic and the overheads a little later, which thickens the attack. We had this problem in my studio, and the solution was to put a hard surface under the kit. I use one of those hard plastic floor protectors they use in office cubicles to protect the carpet from chairs. It works just fine. Since I started using it, I've never needed a bottom snare mic again.-Richie
 
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