Muffled Mix

E

etnoziroh

New member
I hope someone can help...

Here's what I use. I record guitars direct through a V-amp2 into Delta 2496 at 48khz 24 bits into Cakewalk HS2004XL. I only use Parametric EQ and compressor VST/DX. I monitor through Roland DM-10's in S/PDIF mode.

In a nutshell, the only plugs I use are EQ and slight compression. It sounds fine but when I compare my mix to some of the more serious demos by more experienced members in the MP3 clinc and other HR sites, my mixes sound muffled with no presence. I'm using general advice from this forum like subtractive EQ and very conservative use of other FX like reverb and so on.

Is it possible with the equipment I have to get clean and presence filled mixes?
I'm very inexperienced but maybe my limit is equipment too? I'm recording direct so there are no shitty mics to blame. By the way low gain settings improve things but even then all of my recordings have the same low quality sound.

Thanks for reading, hope you can help :)
 
I am not familiar with your gear, but the preamp you are using on di means Everything about your sound quality.
 
Seems like you should be able to run with that. Have you tried trimming back on the lows and/or upper bass on the tracks to get them in shape?
Wayne
 
First of all make sure you have the tones you want going in. Try a search on proximity effect.

It sounds like you need to spend some time playing with the eq.

Try this on each track.

On tracks with not much low end stuff going on (vocals, guitars, keys etc.) run a high pass filter at around 80-100hz. In fact a tip I heard on here a few days ago was to run the HPF up until you can hear it having an effect on the track and then just cut it back a bit from there. So if you hear the sound start to go at around 120hz, then cut it back to 110-115hz.

In the low-mid range set a narrow bandwidth (or 'Q') and boost it 10dbs or so (make sure you levels are fairly low to start with). Then sweep through that range of frequencies (from around 100-500hz) while playing back the soloed track, you should be able to hear if there are frequencies in that range which are muddying up a track, you can then cut that frequency range (keeping the Q good and narrow).

The presence range of EQ is around 4-6Khz so if things are still lacking after you've tried some narrow cuts in the low mids then try some subtle, broader boosts around this range.
 
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Thank you all for the advice. Kevin, you've given me a wonderful tip...

" In the low-mid range set a narrow bandwidth (or 'Q') and boost it 10dbs or so (make sure you levels are fairly low to start with). Then sweep through that range of frequencies (from around 100-500hz) while playing back the soloed track, you should be able to hear if there are frequencies in that range which are muddying up a track, you can then cut that frequency range (keeping the Q good and narrow). "

I've been playing around with this and I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel.
I guess since in my case where everything is recorded direct I don't have the ability to get a great sound from the source. I use DFH2 which begs to be EQ'ed
and the V-amp 2 needs some serious tweaking as well.

thanks :)
 
etnoziroh said:
I guess since in my case where everything is recorded direct I don't have the ability to get a great sound from the source.
Click to expand...


That might be a pretty accurate statement.

For the most part, going direct with guitars pretty much limits your options to varying degrees of suck.
 
chessrock said:
..For the most part, going direct with guitars pretty much limits your options to varying degrees of suck.
Click to expand...
Ouch.
But still, one must solve first things first.. :rolleyes:
Wayne
 
I hear what you're saying about recording direct sounding like crap but my problem is due to poor skills, the whole mix sounds lifeless, drums and bass. I've got a lot of reading and practice to do before I get some acceptably shitty tones :D
 
etnoziroh said:
I hear what you're saying about recording direct sounding like crap but my problem is due to poor skills, the whole mix sounds lifeless, drums and bass. I've got a lot of reading and practice to do before I get some acceptably shitty tones :D
Click to expand...


Well, let's start with the drums.

What kind of room are you tracking in; give specifics on size, what kind of floor (carpet, wood, concrete ?). Have you done a frequency analysis of it? Are the ceilings low? Does it have closed (as opposed to open) corners? If yes to either of these questions, then what kind of bass traps / accoustic treatment?

Next, let's talk a little about the kick and snare. What kind of kit is it? How often are the heads changed? What kind of beater on the kick (felt, plastic, wood?)? That's actually important. :D Is the drummer good with tuning / tweaking / tightening / loosening the various elements of the kit in order to get a brighter and livelier sound? If you tell him: "Dude, we need a more lively sound out of your kit," does he know what kind of heads to use and how to tension them (and more importantly, how to hit them)?

On to the bass: What kind of bass is it? What kind of pickups (active / passive) ? Type of strings used? How often are the strings changed, and what kind of tone settings are used? Lastly, what are you plugging it in to? Have you tried tweaking it to get a more lively sound out of it? Have you tried more than one type of string guage? Do you use a pick or fingers?

What I'm saying is you just need to take it a step at a time and work with each element in the mix before you track anything. Do that, and your mixing job will be a lot easier when it comes time.
 
<< work with each element in the mix before you track anything >>

truer words have rarely been spoken in these parts.

when i first ventured into recording, i'd just slap some takes/tracks together and then spend hours making them all fit together when it came time to mix. i'd eq and tweak and eq and compress and burn a cd and go back and retweak and burn another cd, rinse, repeat. mixing was a chore--it was a fun chore, but it as a chore none the less.

then i learned about preproduction and the value of making sure my tracks work with (and around) each other before i even thing about laying them down. now when i track drums, i know what i'm looking for in the kick, snare and toms, and i tune them to suit (or i reach for my other kit). when i track bass, i know how it's going to interplay with the kick and i get that sound before i lay down the track. same with the guitars--you have quite small frequency windows in which guitars can fit--especially if you've got piano/organ and percussion on there too....and you've gotta keep em out of the way of the bass. i mean, when's the last time you heard an electric guitar on a "pro" album with tons of low end?

anyway, do what chessrock said--spend some time planning and thinking ahead of time. constructing a compelling track is very similar to arranging a song. it takes time and the ability to envision where you want the track to go sonically. like writing and arranging, this too is no small feat.

words to keep in mind: a well tracked song should pretty much mix itself.


cheers,
wade
 
mrface2112 said:
... constructing a compelling track is very similar to arranging a song. it takes time and the ability to envision where you want the track to go sonically. like writing and arranging, this too is no small feat.
Click to expand...


yes yes. yes yes yes yes yes.

yes
 
In my experience, muddy mixes can usually be traced to one simple thing:

The mixer is soloing each track and making each instrument sound perfect, by itself. Add them all together; instant mud.

Better way: What's the most important element in the song? Vocal? Bring that up on the board and tweak it till it's perfect. Leave the vocal up and bring up any other instrument and listen. Did the vocals seem to drop or become a little less distinct? That's a sign that the instrument is competing in some part of the vocal range. Fix it by panning or eq-ing the instrument till the vocal comes back. Leave both tracks up and bring in another instrument.

Did the vocals seem to drop or become a little less distinct? That's a sign that the instrument is competing in some part of the vocal range. Fix it by panning or eq-ing that instrument till the vocal comes back. Repeat untill all tracks are in.

Let the mix play and go stand outside the control room wih the door open. Is anything jumping out at you? Go back in and lower the level of the offender, or use a compressor.

Take a 20 minute break, switch to the nearfield monitors at a very low level (just enough to hear clearly, but you can easily talk above the music). Do not do any tweaking, just listen to the whole song. Does anything still jump out at you? Fix that one thing, and shut down for the night.

Next day, listen to the last mix you left up on the board, still at low level. If it sounds good, crank it up and listen to it at a higher level. If it sounds good, you're done.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
In my experience, muddy mixes can usually be traced to one simple thing:

The mixer is soloing each track and making each instrument sound perfect, by itself. Add them all together; instant mud.

Better way: What's the most important element in the song? Vocal? Bring that up on the board and tweak it till it's perfect. Leave the vocal up and bring up any other instrument and listen. Did the vocals seem to drop or become a little less distinct? That's a sign that the instrument is competing in some part of the vocal range. Fix it by panning or eq-ing the instrument till the vocal comes back. Leave both tracks up and bring in another instrument.

Did the vocals seem to drop or become a little less distinct? That's a sign that the instrument is competing in some part of the vocal range. Fix it by panning or eq-ing that instrument till the vocal comes back. Repeat untill all tracks are in.

Let the mix play and go stand outside the control room wih the door open. Is anything jumping out at you? Go back in and lower the level of the offender, or use a compressor.

Take a 20 minute break, switch to the nearfield monitors at a very low level (just enough to hear clearly, but you can easily talk above the music). Do not do any tweaking, just listen to the whole song. Does anything still jump out at you? Fix that one thing, and shut down for the night.

Next day, listen to the last mix you left up on the board, still at low level. If it sounds good, crank it up and listen to it at a higher level. If it sounds good, you're done.
Click to expand...
Can I get Another YES YES YES! :D
Wayne
 
Thanks for taking the time to reply, I apprciate the attention you've given my post. I have to say that my setup is 100% virtual so I can't take room acoustics into account. My bass is entry level, I alternate between it and bass guitar soundfonts. I've got an Epi LP standard thru a Vamp into the Delta 2496 and for drums I use DFH2. So you see the only "Real" instrument I use most of the time is the guitar which is DI. No Mics at all, my home recordings have no vocals. I have no dreams of pro sounding recordings, my equipment is sub par but with some hard learned skills maybe I can get some decent home recordings.

I've learned to take phasing into account just recently :D

What hit home...

"The mixer is soloing each track and making each instrument sound perfect, by itself. Add them all together; instant mud."

I do exactly that :eek: , time to change procedures. :)
 
etnoziroh said:
What hit home...

"The mixer is soloing each track and making each instrument sound perfect, by itself. Add them all together; instant mud."

I do exactly that :eek: , time to change procedures. :)
Click to expand...
Score a point for the old guy!!
 
Kevin DeSchwazi said:
First of all make sure you have the tones you want going in. Try a search on proximity effect.

It sounds like you need to spend some time playing with the eq.

Try this on each track.

On tracks with not much low end stuff going on (vocals, guitars, keys etc.) run a high pass filter at around 80-100hz. In fact a tip I heard on here a few days ago was to run the HPF up until you can hear it having an effect on the track and then just cut it back a bit from there. So if you hear the sound start to go at around 120hz, then cut it back to 110-115hz.

In the low-mid range set a narrow bandwidth (or 'Q') and boost it 10dbs or so (make sure you levels are fairly low to start with). Then sweep through that range of frequencies (from around 100-500hz) while playing back the soloed track, you should be able to hear if there are frequencies in that range which are muddying up a track, you can then cut that frequency range (keeping the Q good and narrow).

The presence range of EQ is around 4-6Khz so if things are still lacking after you've tried some narrow cuts in the low mids then try some subtle, broader boosts around this range.
Click to expand...

hey that sounds like some really good advice!

:rolleyes:

im glad i could help!
 
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