mp3 to stereo to MD for broadcast

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Hi everyone! First post and I already have a complex problem...well, maybe I'm just making it so, but here goes.

I began doing internet-only radio from home last October on http://www.live365.com and I'm happy for the most part on creating a program of news and music that I feel can touch hearts and minds. My setup is an AMD 500 Windows 98 2nd ed. PC, with 64 RAM, 12G, an external PCS sound card (using Yamaha technology..a DS-XG digital soundcard), PC desk mic, generic PC speakers. For my stereo I have an Aiwa NSX-5100, a few years old, has DSP, Dolby, great home theater setup. For my MiniDisc: A Sharp MD-MT-15.

For recording mp3s: I take an analog RCA cable and hookup to tower rack's speaker jack and to stereo, switch the stereo setting to Auxiliary so it can pick up the sounds of the PC..I plant my plugged in PC desk mic right up to the center of my speakers, test the mic for sound..and then cue the mp3...and then record onto the MD.

For recording CD tracks: I take a Sharp digital optical cable and hook up to stereo jack that supports it, and to line in of my Sharp MD..and cue CD, and then record MD..ensure digital recording.

Now then....
playback of the MD tracks that had the CD songs are flawless, because I don't lose quality. But...
upon playback of the MD either for my stereo or for broadcast: The mp3s in analog are quite distorted, no matter how much I tweak the DSP. The sound card properties don't seem to be much help. That is the area I need help in.
I have been recommended to try different things, and the more I explore the more confused I get. I have been told to get a CD burner, so when I do that synchro from the PC, I won't be using analog. Also getting a new sound card that can support digital and a Toslink cable that can keep the digital quality from the card to the MD.

Now I turn to you guys...Your thoughts?

Dan Herman
 
First off, I'm no expert on PC recording so don't take my word as Gospel. I don't understand what you mean by '...and then cue the MP3... and then record onto MD'. Do you mean you are using your PC desk mike to record direct to MD? Your MD has a special mike input? If you can do this, your MD must have an input other than the optical. Why not just run the sound that you are running to your stereo direct to the MD instead; via the RCA cable? Sorry if I'm off-base about this but I'm not familiar with your MD or your soundcard. At any rate, a big part of your problem could be the PC desk mike which is probably crap.
 
When I record mp3s, my PC mic is recording while plugged into the MD, into its mic jack. How I orient the mic is one thing, also taking into account any atmospheric noise. I would think regardless, I am simply getting analog sound, as I am taking sounds from the PC, since filtered by my stereo.
For CD tracks, this is a moot point: my digital optical cable goes into the MD's line-in and records a perfect digital track.

This is my point!!! I do not desire analog sound, therefore I do not desire to record with an RCA cable from stereo to MD. I am looking for digital sound.

Upon my most recent travels, I believe I have found high tech sound cards that support MD input as well as track-only. But I suppose getting a CD burner might be the best thing in light of what my desired outcome is: to achieve digital recording and digital playback from my mp3s on my MD. Clear??

Dan
 
Well, from the way you phrased your first post, you weren't necessarily looking for a digital sound, but mainly for a clearer sound. You don't have to have digital to have a clear sound. Remember, most recorded music starts as analog anyway and is always listened to analog, but, as you point out, the longer it remains in the digital domain, the clearer it is- if it's done right. That's why bypassing the mike would almost certainly give you a clearer sound, given tweaked volume levels, because you have one less link (the mike) in the analog chain. It seems to me that if you are getting a clean sound out of your stereo speakers with your mp3s, then you can get a clean sound onto your MD instead of the 'distorted' one you mentioned. Certainly, your beliefs are right- there are soundcards that have optical I/Os that would suit your digital goals. I was just trying to help you get a cleaner sound from the set up you already have. Sorry if I misunderstood. :-)
 
Now my turn to ask: In the steps I take, how do I bypass the mic for recording purposes?

Yes I am seeking a clearer sound. I get distortion from the sound from the stereo, as the stereo is translating what is on the PC. That is what I want to clean up.

There's really no misunderstanding. I have shared this topic many times and I'm just bitter right now. I really need some good answers so I can run right out and get whatever equipment is necessary. So I continue....
 
Don't be bitter..... just be happy in the knowledge that we are all in this together--- one big mass of suffering PC audio geeks. At least we've got each other, man.

It just hit me, if you were recording your stereo to MD with one PC mike, you were getting a mono mix on your MD. Are you sure that the jack you have the mike plugged into on the MD is a mike jack and not a stereo line-in jack? If that were the case, you'd only be getting a mono mix out of one channel of your MD. Also, are you sure that the jack you have the mike plugged into isn't another DIGITAL input on your MD? Also, are you sure that the signal you are routing to your stereo is an analog signal and not a digital one from your soundcard? That might explain why you are getting distortion from your Aiwa. At any rate, if the signal that is going to your stereo is analog as you think it is, and the input to your MD is analog as you think it is, then you should be able to buy a cable from Radio Shack that will patch directly from your soundcard to the input of the MD. If the output of the soundcard and the input of the MD are both digital, you should still be able to get a cable to connect the two. If one is digital and one is analog you will be able to get a cable that fits, but it won't necessarily sound good. I hope this doesn't confuse you or state something that is obvious.


Brian

[Edited by Brian Ferrell on 02-17-2001 at 00:58]
 
Brian, :-) we may have each other, and no i'm not bitter, but I really do need answers.
I am absolutely sure that the PC mic is in the MD mic jack. It's marked very clearly. I know about the line in on the MD too...I use the digital cable for that so I can record CD to MD. Thats' the stereo connection.

But how would i know if the MD's mic input is digital input if I already have a line-in?
I wish I had the answer to the sound card one too. Because I cannot find anyone who will support the Yamaha card. It's external and supports digital and spdif. It's a Yamaha DX-SG, produced by DCS. I saw somewhere there are such cards that are digital coaxial that have all those bells and whistles as internal ones....no need to buy extra items. I wonder what they go for.

This is the help page for this option on the sound card.


Digital Output
Use the Digital Output option to set up digital outputs. Note that digital outputs will not effect the volume control setting configured by the Windows standard Master Volume output. To adjust the volume control for all digital outputs, you need to use external amplifiers.

OFF
Checking this box eliminates all digital outputs. Acoustic sound outputs will only playback at analog signal pins.

ON (Digital Sources Only)
Checking this box enables the wavetable, MIDI, DirectSound and DOS-compatible acoustic sound output functions at digital signal pins. External inputs including microphone and line are not provided as outputs at digital signal pins. The acoustic sound outputs will playback at analog signal pins. Normal Mic echo outputs cannot playback through the SPDIF interface mode.

ON (All Sources) / Analog out is muted
Checking this box eliminates all analog outputs. Acoustic sound outputs will playback at digital signal pins. However, acoustic sound inputs from an external source may be muted during recording and/or while Mic echo is active.



When I bought this, I haven't tweaked with it and all. It's been set to ON (Digital Sources only)

Questions?
Dan
 
OK, Dan, now we're getting somewhere. I went to Sharp's site and looked up your MD recorder. You're absolutely right, it IS a mic input. Since the site doesn't say anything about it also being a line input, I have to assume that it's an ANALOG, MONO mic input. It's probably there more for speech dictation than for recording music, but you can still record music but it won't be in stereo. Also, the site says that if you want to use automatic volume limiting, you have to use the optical/digital input. If you use the mic for recording, you have to adjust the volume manually. So if you are getting distortion from the recorded mini disc while using the mic for recording, it could be because you have the manual volume on the MD set too high. From the info you've given me in your last post, you have both digital and analog outputs on your soundcard. SPDIF stands for Sony/Phillips Digital InterFace. I have them on my SB Live Platinum soundcard interface. SPDIF has an RCA plug style but it's digital. As far as I know, there is no cable sold that will allow you to connect your soundcard digitally to your MD unless you also have an optical digital out on your soundcard, which it appears that you don't. If you are content to have a mono recording, you should be able to record from the analog outs (pins) of your soundcard to the MD's mic in. Since I can't see your PC in front of me, I don't know what kind of connections are on your soundcard and MD, but once you figure out what type they are, Radio Shack will almost certainly have a patch cord to connect the two. Just make sure you have the correct boxes checked and unchecked as you described in the soundcards help section that you just posted. The best this is gonna give you is an analog mono recording though, and I think you want better sound than that. You have to make the decision whether you want to get a CD burner or a new soundcard with optical out. Again, you DO have digital out on your current soundcard-- just not optical digital. As for broadcasting the MP3s, why can't you just go direct from your PC to the internet with them? That's an area I don't have much knowledge of, but it seems like you should be able to do that without recording your MP3s to MD.
Brian
 
A couple things I forgot to mention. If you still want to record direct to MD from your soundcard to the mike input, you will probably need a stereo to mono cord. This will depend on what type of analog outs you have on your soundcard and what type of mic jack is on the MD. If you want to keep recording through the aiwa/mic/MD setup, try using your analog outs on the soundcard making sure either the 'Off' or the 'On (all sources)' box is checked. MP3 is a digital format so if you have the 'On (digital only)' box checked, it could be that you are only sending digital or mixed digital/analog signals to the Aiwa which would cause distortion. Also you might try lowering your Windows master volume level. As it states in your post, digital signals won't be affected by that, but analog probably would. If you are sending too powerful a signal to the Aiwa, that would cause distortion.
 
I agree completely, Brian. That's pretty much bringing this matter full circle. Just as you said, I need a CD burner, or soundcard with digital optical out. Fine. But I don't know which is better or what to look for given what I need to do.
When I use Sharp's digitial opt cable, it automatically keeps the volume standard to a specific range..I forget what it is..but it's high..when I record either CDs or mp3s, I keep volume at 20 on scale of 1-30. But I have to crank the MD to 30 if I want to playback at a decent volume so the stereo speakers can pick it up.
Why can't I go from PC to Internet in recording? uh...well, I don't know how...

My PC has a speaker, mic and line in jack. The line in jack on there I have never used.
On the MD, you have probably seen it on the Sharp site. On one side of the one I am using, the MD-MT-15, it has MIC IN (plug in power), Optical/Line in, and headphone jack. NO dedicated line out. That's it.

Now I just may have found the solution to this problem without worrying about hardware..check this out...
I talked with one of my regular listeners, who is from Alabama, has a band and a studio. He used to work on PCs a lot. Anyway, Mark he says to get a 1/8" ministereo male-to-male cable. The cable would loop between my PC's speaker jack and the PC's line in jack. Got that? OK..
Then when that is strung up, I get my mp3s together, set them up in playlist on winamp.
Assuming I can talk over music I can skip the following:
When I talk or read news as I do before music, I go to my Control Panel, then Volume Control, mute line in. When I spin the mp3s, I mute mic, and put line in back on. I would go back and forth like that.
If I can talk over the music, and I would think I do, then the previous is moot.
I'm going to test this on my broadcast server after my show on Tuesday, and I'll get a few people to listen in remotely to see if it works!!

Dan
 
Uhh...sorry for running you around in circles, but I didn't know how much you already knew, so I wanted to touch all the bases so that I was sure you weren't missing something. I guess you'll just have to do some research on the net to see if you can find equipment that suits your needs.

I guess you know you can use the headphone jack on the MD for an analog line-out?- or is that what you meant when you said you had to 'crank the MD to 30' so the stereo speakers can pick it up?

As for the direct from pc to internet broadcasting, you may need special software for that. I just bought Cakewalk Pro Audio 9.0 and one of the reasons I got it was because you are supposed to be able to stream audio onto the Net with it. I don't know if it works 'cause I haven't gotten it out of the box yet. Why don't you start a new topic with 'direct from pc to internet' as your main question. Maybe someone with more experience than I will pick up on it and give you some answers.
It sounds as tho the advice you got from your listener might work. Good luck!
 
Yes, I knew about the headphone jack in the MD to be used as a line out..

Well, I already have software from the people that help me broadcast http://www.live365.com They are the ones who host up to 26000 subscribers who are doing what I do for the most part.

OK, looks like I have to answer that question with a CD burner, or appropo soundcard OR maybe, just maybe, this matter of a particular cable will answer the q and save me $$$.

Can you recommend a digital coaxial soundcard? I may as well go for broke just in case.
 
Well, the only digital coaxial card I can recommend (since it's the only one I've ever used) is Creative Labs Soundblaster Live! Platinum. It has an internal card (so you'll need a spare PCI slot on your motherboard) that has 1/8" mini plug connections and a joystick connection. The 1/8" plugs are: digital out to connect to MD or digital speakers (also, DAT & Digital Output Module); analog line in; analog line out; rear analog line out(for a four speaker set up); and mic in. This card also comes with the Live! Drive which you will need an extra 5 1/4" external bay in your tower for. If you don't have that, don't get this card. The Live! Drive lets you connect most of your stuff to the front of your computer. It has S/PDIF I/Os, 1/4" headphone jack with volume control, extra mic/line-in with volume control and MIDI I/Os. My card doesn't have an optical connection, but there is a version of this card out that does have one. These cards can be had for about $200 (I haven't checked around lately so they might be cheaper). If you don't have a spare 5 1/4" external bay to spare, you can get the cheaper plain old Soundblaster Live! (same thing as the Platinum, but no Live! Drive) and then if you need optical or digital coaxial connections you can find Soundblaster add-ons at http://www.hoontech.com for about $50.00. Soundblaster specs can be found at http://www.sblive.com . There are variations of the SBLive! that are considerably cheaper. Soundblasters are top of the line consumer cards. If you want a more pro soundcard, you might have to pay a little more money. You'll have to shop around and figure out what you want and need.
Brian
 
Not bad! But all I have here is this external digital card...only speaker jack, mic jack and line in jack. I bought that connector..hooked up to line in and speaker.....but nothing works!! Well, not yet anyway. My speakers have its own plug in...we'll see if that makes a difference in recording.

By the way, Radio Crystal Blue is on 7:30 tonight....that's in 40 minutes from right now..at
http://www.homestead.com/bluec/index.html Find the hotlink that will take you to my show.

Dan
 
Sheeesh! I'm really not understanding you. Sorry. I thought you said that your soundcard is 'external and supports digital and SPDIF'. You mean it 'supports' it, but doesn't have the necessary connections????? I guess I don't really understand the concept of the 'external digital card'-- how does it connect to your PC-- USB? From your quotes of the card's help section, there are analog and digital 'pins' that those signals can be tranferred on. Doesn't your external card give you access to those pins? If it doesn't, there must be some kind of option you could get that would.... but like you said you can't find any support for the card. Did you try doing a search on Yahoo! or another search engine?
 
sorry, Brian.. All I got was a CD. The sound card is already put in and I have never removed it. Pins? Everything is controlled by the choices in the windows. It came installed as "Yamaha DX-SG Audio Configuration" There is help menu and I did post earlier the SPDIF contents..other settings exist for secondary buffer, synth, mic echo, etc.
Everything I plug in is for the mic, speakers and line in. Which I thought until know is a feature of the fax/win modem I have. HM.......
Well, my connector doesn't seem to work the way we had considered. I plug one end into the line in, the other into the speaker jack. No sound. Now I'm really concerned.
I called Yamaha, but they have no support for my card, it's actually DCS product. They have no help on their site, plus the number I was given also doesn't have support for the particular card.
So I was sold a bum system. That's what is bothering me. I need to upgrade, and I may need the best I can afford. If I knew exactly what I need.

Dan
 
Looks like you've been through all the available options, Dan. I guess your best bet is to upgrade your card, which is what I am now in the process of doing. The SBLive! Platinum is a good card, but it doesn't have 24 bit analog/digital converters which is what I want for home multitrack music recording. I've been looking at Hoontech cards http://www.hoontech.com which offer the most options for the buck, but I have to deal overseas with them. I'm also checking out the Delta 66 Omni package http://www.midiman.com - they both run about $400. A good site that you may want to visit is http://www.pcrecording.com/soundtable.htm -it lists a pile of available soundcards with a list of features for each. Just make sure that your PC will have available slots for them and be compatible with your processor and operating system.
I want to check out your radio show, but don't often have the time. Do you broadcast regularly? If so, what nights and times?
Brian
 
shrugs...I guess I will have to upgrade the soundcard then...Not a problem. I will look at the pcrecording.com website. But I do think it would be wise for me to see if there is agreeability with it accepting Minidiscs and such. Also I came across this website:
http://www.minidisco.com They have a neat feature that I've had my eye on for a few days called the Xitel DG-1 port. Also the AN-1 port..specially designed to fit my USB port and a MD recorder's line in. Just what I need!! Check it out and decide if it fits what I may need, from your best understanding of my situation. I think it's fine.

As for Radio Crystal Blue you can get to my show by going to my webpage at http://www.homestead.com/bluec/index.html There is a hotlink next to where I say 'here's how to find RCB'
That will take you to Live365 and open up a second window. That second window is the program itself. Best audio program to listen with is WinAmp http://www.winamp.com

RCB is a live show from here in my Roselle, NJ home 7:30pm EST every Tuesday until 10:00pm. Maybe then you can see what my mp3s sound like in its analog glory

Best.....Dan
 
Dan, I checked out those products on the minidisco site and don't think they will work for you. The DG-1 page says that it has been found to be NOT compatible with Sharp recorders. The AN-1 is all analog so it would have to go to your MD mic input which would give you only mono recordings. On the same site is the MAudio Dio2448 which is a card that would give you optical I/Os for your PC. It costs $129. I would definitely check with the manufacturer to assure compatibility before ordering it. Another option you might have is to upgrade your stereo receiver to one with an optical out. You could run your speaker out from your pc to the analog ins of the receiver and from there run an optical line to the MD. Again, tho, your still talking a lot of bucks. I still think your best bet is to upgrade your soundcard. Maybe you could have a local PC specialist check your PC out and have him suggest something and maybe have him install it for you. That way at least you will be assured of not spending your money on something that won't work for your system.
Brian
 
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