Mountains - original song

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paulman77

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Hi everyone. I put together a home studio about a year ago so that I can finally get serious about recording after a lifetime of occasionally making mediocre recordings (from dubbing back and forth on karaoke machines in high school, to a 4-track tape machine, to various forms of computer technology that wasn't quite up to snuff). I love the equipment and software I've got now (Macbook, UA Apollo and plugins, 88 key keyboard, MIDI drumset and great multisample sets so I can play drum parts instead of programming them or playing with my fingers on the keyboard, and of course my guitars and bass). I'm a guitarist by trade (Army Band), but I've been fortunate to work with many great musicians who have taught me enough on different instruments to be able to do what I want to do in the studio.

I've got five tracks recorded so far, and they are all pretty close to being finished. Mastering is what's giving me the most trouble, trying to get that professional sheen on them. This song I'm posting is an original of mine, and I think it's pretty close to where it needs to be. But I've been working on it so much that I'm afraid I'm too far inside it and can't tell what sounds good anymore. My intent with the sound of this was somewhere between Pink Floyd and short-haired Willie Nelson (think Funny How Time Slips Away). An open, smooth, warm yet clear, melancholy vibe. I'm not sure if I've achieved that, but I think I've gotten close. I'm in desperate need of criticism on this. Thanks in advance for any responses!

Update:

Latest mix
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1q3bgtkYyakM3YxOFJsUnpHbm8
 
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Firstly I want to say that I like to song, but there a few things that stand out, the main thing is EQ on the individual tracks, I notice that the vocal is a bit nasally sounding there are frequencies that I would remove with some high Q notches, the bass guitar could also be even warmer in the lowest octave, there's also an over emphasis slighly on too much high end in the mastering, and too much high mids, it doesn't sound right in the low mids and midrange, but I can see what you were going for.

To make an open smooth yet clear sound, boosting at 28kHz with a shelf EQ is what I would do, but only at the mastering stage, the main work is in the mixing, be careful with high end, I actually create mixes that are deliberately smooth and dark sounding in the high end, just so that I can boost them in mastering so it won't sound harsh.
 
Awesome! Thank you. I've been struggling with the mids. I had them better on an earlier master, but after going back into the mix to make some adjustments somehow I got the mids back up. All the bouncing I have to do to get around DSP limitations can get confusing, so I may have missed a step in mastering the remix. I realized it after posting this, while listening to it in my truck on the way to work. In any case, I appreciate the specific suggestions.
 
This is a pretty good start. I'm not super-familiar with willie's work, so I can't tell you how well you've captured his vibe.

I think there's a horizontal clip on the very first note. You might want to check the fade in on that.

The distortion on the lead guitar is a little wonky. It's mostly pretty clean, but a few notes have some crackle on them, almost as if your connection is bad rather than an overdrive thing.

The vocals seem really up-front too.

I like the synth/piano interlude in the middle. Nice harmonies after that too.
 
I like the song. Very musical playing, nice solid groove. There's something going on with your lead guitar--some clipping and pops here and there. You might zoom in on the wave form and look for places where you are clipping. What guitar and amp were you using? Love the piano. My main criticism is the lead vocal. It is loud enough but sounds muffled and has too little presence and air. EQ will help, but you might want to reconsider your mic choice going forward.

Welcome to the Clinic. Please listen and comment on tunes others have posted.
 
I like the voice timbre. Slightly nasal, but good timbre.
The guitar solos bore me in that typical wilco country alt-rock style. I mean they fit the genre, but just not particularly exciting.
No real hook in the tune, which would be fine if the arrangement had better dynamics, build ups, more instruments coming in and out, harmonies etc. The lyrics "just a kiss" and "never ever go" are both cliche and I could predict them before they came. You're like 3/4 to being good but have to sort out the monotony/cliche thing somehow. Sorry if that seems harsh I don't mean it that way.

The mix seemed good, but i packed up all my gear and only had computer speakers so i can't be sure.
 
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To me, the drums are the biggest area for improvement.

The drums have some nice accents but also some weird stuff going on. The snare sounds like it is unnaturally in the back of the mix. The drums sound small relative to everything, which is fine to an extent in this style but it may be too small. The toms at 1:52 sound very distant and thin. Again at 2:06.

Hope this helps!
 
Not harsh at all, Nola. That's the great thing about having people who don't know you telling you what they think. You get honesty. I wrote this 21 years ago, when I was 18. It's naive because I was naive, and it just kind of is what it is, which is who I was at the time. I have other, newer, more mature songs to record, but I really want to get this one out of the way. Funny about Wilco, because they bore me too.
 
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Robus said:
I like the song. Very musical playing, nice solid groove. There's something going on with your lead guitar--some clipping and pops here and there. You might zoom in on the wave form and look for places where you are clipping. What guitar and amp were you using? Love the piano. My main criticism is the lead vocal. It is loud enough but sounds muffled and has too little presence and air. EQ will help, but you might want to reconsider your mic choice going forward.

Welcome to the Clinic. Please listen and comment on tunes others have posted.
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Yeah, I've been struggling with those pops, and I have edited the waveform. But it seems like every time I add plugins and bounce they come back. I'm not sure why they're there in the first place. I should probably just re-track the guitar, as I've learned more about how to properly track with my UA interface since I recorded that. I was using an Epiphone Les Paul on that, with a Line 6 Firehawk. I can't remember off the top of my head what amp model it was. Although I love the versatility of the Line 6, I'm really missing having a real amp. I see they're making a reissue of the Mesa Boogie Mark IIc+, so I'm going to have to look into that when I have the money. As far as the vocal, whatever is lacking in presence and air is due to my mixing, not the mic. The mic is incredibly detailed (Avantone CV12), I just have a hard time with sibilance and breath noise. I probably overdid it in trying to combat that, which is bad since there's still too much sibilance, I think. I'm still trying to learn what I'm doing, and I drive myself batty trying to figure out how to EQ things where they need to be.

I look forward to checking out other tunes and giving what input I can.
 
paulman77 said:
Funny about Wilco, because they bore me too.
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*high five*

I feel the same about Wilco. They could be good if they weren't so consonant and boring. A lot of country-alt rock has this same problem to my ear. But, this is all opinion so.

Anyway.

You should get all the old stuff out of the way and get on to the new stuff. I'm dealing with that myself a bit so I know what you mean about maturity and styles changing.
But back to you: your tune has potential. I'd up the tempo 3 to 5bpm, change the two cliche vocal lines, maybe cut out one of the guitar solos and do something else there (leave the outro one it's good), not have the keys and guitar going as much at the same time.... maybe drop one out at times. Maybe do something in the drums that builds up during the solos. Just some ideas. As a listener I want some dynamic changes/build up and not just consonant sounds the entire time. I like that ending note -- wish I heard more of that sound throughout to keep interest.
 
I think you recorded the clipping and distortion, somewhere in your input chain. Now it's there. You can edit to a point, then it becomes easier to re-track.

I've been thinking about that Avantone CV12 myself. How do you like it for vocal?
 
Nola said:
*high five*

I feel the same about Wilco. They could be good if they weren't so consonant and boring. A lot of country-alt rock has this same problem to my ear. But, this is all opinion so.

Anyway.

You should get all the old stuff out of the way and get on to the new stuff. I'm dealing with that myself a bit so I know what you mean about maturity and styles changing.
But back to you: your tune has potential. I'd up the tempo 3 to 5bpm, change the two cliche vocal lines, maybe cut out one of the guitar solos and do something else there (leave the outro one it's good), not have the keys and guitar going as much at the same time.... maybe drop one out at times. Maybe do something in the drums that builds up during the solos. Just some ideas. As a listener I want some dynamic changes/build up and not just consonant sounds the entire time. I like that ending note -- wish I heard more of that sound throughout to keep interest.
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Good thoughts, thank you. I may come back to it with some of those things in mind after recording some other songs. I've been focusing so hard on this one and the four others I've recorded so far that I really need to get into some others to get my mind fresh. I'm sick of this one right now, to be honest. I just want to get the damn sound right before moving on. Of the five, this one is my worst mix, which is why I posted it. Think I'll spend some time tonight listening to other mixes on this forum. There's a lot to learn here. I'll give my two cents, but I'm really new to mixing and mastering. I don't count anything I've done up to this point.
 
Robus said:
I've been thinking about that Avantone CV12 myself. How do you like it for vocal?
Click to expand...

I love it for what it captures. The problem for me is that I have a hard time toning it down, because I just don't know how to target the right frequencies yet. There is one song I've recorded where I'm totally happy with the vocal, had no problems with sibilance or anything, and I'm not sure why. Maybe the preamp settings on the UA interface, since I'm always trying different things when I track. Long story short, if you know what you're doing, it's a great mic. I got lucky once with the right settings and got a great sound without having to mess too much with it, but every other time I'm fighting high frequencies like crazy.
 
Very nice song. I really liked it. If this was my production, I would raise the level of drums a lot (Can't say anything about the tone as they are so quiet now...), I'd do something about the ac. gtr sound - maybe cut some 0,8-1,2 kHz, reduce the piano level a bit at some points, I'd check the drums panning to be more centre i.e. hats on the hard left now... but all these are only a matter of taste, of course. Good work anyway.
 
Nice song first off. Very relaxed, flowing, vibey and musical performance, which is by far the most important thing here, above all else. Great tone and timbre to your vocals.

The mix is quite good. Well captured. Nicely balanced in general. There is a clipping distortion happening on the lead guitar bits that I am sure you are aware of. If that is there at the source, I'm afraid you can't really do anything about that. Well, you could introduce more distortion in an attempt to cover it up, but I can hear that isn't your intention with this arrangement. There is also a clickiness on the lead guitar that is sometimes "too much". Sounds like a compressor bringing up the clickiness. It's a cool sound, but potentially a little too much of a good thing, depending on subjective judgement.

I'm feeling that the drums can come up in the mix. Is there a kick? I like the brushy sounding drums and personally I would bring them up a lot, but this may not align with the aesthetic you are going for.

Great job overall. When I had my studio together for a year, I wish I was up to this quality but I was nowhere near this. Keep it up!
 
Okay, I've got a lot of people saying I need to bring up the drums. I guess I'll have to work on that. When they were louder, they were kind of distracting, I think mainly due to the dynamic inconsistency in my drumming (and to some extent the insensitivity of my cheap drum pads). I may have to bite the bullet and edit the velocities to even it out. I absolutely hate editing MIDI information. I'd rather just play a part over and over until it's right, or until I maybe only have to edit a couple of minor things.

I'm definitely going to re-track the lead guitar. The second, short solo was completely off the cuff, and when I tried to recreate it it just didn't have the same vibe. So I tried to fix the clicking in Logic, but as you can see that didn't work out. So new lead guitar it is. It might sound better with my Strat anyway.

I've been working on EQ changes based on what Btyre2013 suggested. Where it's at now, most of the sound is improved, but the vocal is REALLY dull now and I'm trying to bring that back out. I got tired of working on it last night and just explored other posts and mixes on this forum instead. There's some really great talent here. I'm excited to be here.
 
I thought the guitar playing was quite tasteful. Nice job. I like the singer's voice - nice tone.

The lead guitar had a bit of an abrasive attack - like every note had a bite to it.

It's pretty tough to hear much from the drums. I can hear some cymbals and a snare. But there is no kick I can hear at all. The entire kit needs to be brought up.

I think the vocal is slightly behind the guitars.

So, I'd bring all the drums tracks up quite a bit - the kick more than the other drum tracks. Then I'd lower the rhythm guitars and bass. That should give you a little better balance.

Then I'd back way off the reverb. On everything. I'd almost remove it entirely. Take it down so you have to strain to even hear it.

Then I'd re-post it here and let everyone give it another listen.
 
Thanks TripleM. I'll definitely repost after I do some work on it. Should be a slow night at work tonight, so maybe I'll have the energy to track new lead guitar and work on the mix when I get home.
 
Reworked mix

View attachment Mountains.mp3

Okay, this one is better. Still some work to be done, but it's probably best if I get some feedback on where it's at now before I go any further. I retracked the lead guitar. It sounds better as far as not having the popping and crackling, but I don't think I'm happy with the tone. It sounds more country now, which is not exactly what I'm going for. I wanted a slightly fuzzy, warm sound. But whatever I try to achieve that doesn't really seem to sound right (which is what ya'll heard with the first version I posted). Also, I imitated the earlier improvised leads note for note (I've been listening to them forever on this mix, so they're kind of ingrained), so the spontaneous element is missing. So I'll probably give the lead another go, but it sounds better for now than it did. Also, I started over with the vocal. I didn't retrack it, but I went back to the original recording with no plugins and started over. Turns out it was all the crap I had on it that made the sibilance so bad, which in turn caused me to wreak havoc on the master trying to get the EQ right. So all the vocal has on it now is a Fairchild compressor and a TG12345, plus the EMT 140 reverb that's on the vocal buss that includes the background vocals. It sounds a lot better, but may need to come up a little. I'm not sure.

Thanks to everyone for all the help so far, it's gotten me farther in two days than I did in weeks before posting here.
 
I like this mix. There's an openness in the center of your stereo spread and that lets the hats and cymbals breath, and gives the vocals space. I also like that the midrange is not crowded. This is pretty much the sound I'm trying to achieve in my mixes too.

Lead vocals, still a little muffled and dark. Lead guitar much better take.

You've got a bit of noise in the background. I didn't notice it until it stopped abruptly at the very end. Sounds like you've got a preamp set too high somewhere. Not a big deal. This and the clipping on the previous guitar track makes me think you might be tracking too hot. With digital, you can track at lower input levels than you would do with analog tape.
 
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