Mood for a Day with NTK's and C1's

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Buck,

Sorry my friend, but you have me totally fucked as to how you came to those assumptions from Alan's first post.

Maybe my prescient abilities shone through on this one, but I knew exactly what Alan meant before he had to come back and explain himself.

:cool:
 
You guys . . . crackin' me up.

All I can say is the people who do mic comparisons on this board have great taste in music. Seems like I'm always hearing Pink Floyd, and now Yes.

Good to see we got our priorities straight around this board. Anyway, aside from making me greif-striken with envy over this guys' playing, I couldn't help but notice:

About 50% of us or more own those preamps! And they sound pretty damn good in that example. The stereo image really puts the acc. guitar right in front of me. I feel like I'm in the room. I like that. Who cares what mics are being used. That's just some damn fine playing, with damn good mic placement.

I suppose accoustic guitar is one of those things that really isn't too difficult to make sound good on it's own. I've never had too much trouble with it, and I suck (at guitar). :) The infamous XDR kinda' delivers the goods on that one.

Pretty exciting time to be a home wrecker, these days.
 
Buck62 said:

I just take exception to your "nudging" folks toward your mic, that's all.

I have not nudged anyone towards my mics in months. Like you, I hold no punches, I am a New Yorker, which puts me one step ahead of you Chicago guys...;) :D

As for the rest of my reply, I decided to forget about it. If you guys don't understand by now what happens when you use a tube mic against a FET mic with a totally different sound...then you will never know. Fact is, as soon as you use any two mics...its a comparison.


Alan Hyatt
PMI Audio Group
 
I guess your right about it being a comparison Alan.It's human nature to compare two examples of anything given no matter what the intent.Even though two mics are very different in both design and price people will judge them against one another which is like trying to compare the taste of strawberries to that of lobster.Both are foods and both can taste mighty fine but they are totaly different in design and price.

Maybe these examples should be labeled for entertainment purposes only (like this one was).I think that for me besides the entertainment value it does show what sounds might be possible with these mics under the conditions that they are recorded.I don't have the opportunity to try many mics as I order most of my equipment online so often I will have to order something without the chance to hear it.Kind of sucks but I always (at least I do now) research my puchases carefully and buy from a dealer that has a generous return policy so I can try the item and only be out shipping if it's a POS.I would never base a purchasing decision on just one source so though I might take into consideration an example someone post,I put more weight into the experiences of owners and users of the products.Some products,like the RNC,Mackie VLZ Pro (and perhaps Studio Projects mics) get such universaly high remarks from owners that I would not hesitate to try one while other products (like Behringer products)get very mixed user reviews so although I might puchase one of these products,I would be more hesitant about jumping in with both feet.
 
chessrock said:
You guys . . . crackin' me up.

All I can say is the people who do mic comparisons on this board have great taste in music. Seems like I'm always hearing Pink Floyd, and now Yes.

Good to see we got our priorities straight around this board. Anyway, aside from making me greif-striken with envy over this guys' playing, I couldn't help but notice:

About 50% of us or more own those preamps! And they sound pretty damn good in that example. The stereo image really puts the acc. guitar right in front of me. I feel like I'm in the room. I like that. Who cares what mics are being used. That's just some damn fine playing, with damn good mic placement.

I suppose accoustic guitar is one of those things that really isn't too difficult to make sound good on it's own. I've never had too much trouble with it, and I suck (at guitar). :) The infamous XDR kinda' delivers the goods on that one.

Pretty exciting time to be a home wrecker, these days.
thanks for the kind words...

adding a C4 (3 db cut at 250Hz-Low Q) and a bit of reverb i feel really makes a significance difference in the quality. i've recorded this guitar a lot with M+S (using a 4050 and 4033). though, i feel the imaging is a bit better with this setup and giving distance (30 inches) really drops the prox effect.
 
Please, no one ever post a comparison of any 2, or 3, or 4, or 5, or 6 mics recording the same source in the same setup ever again. All of us homereccers who can't afford to buy ALL of the mics might be swayed to purchase just one if we actually get to hear the products that people own.

AND IT MIGHT BE THE WRONG ONE!!!

We might have to make our buying decisions based on how we HEAR, instead of other more important factors, like:
  • price
  • list of features
  • website design
  • cool body color
  • name
  • homerecording.com "love factor"
  • the opinion of some dude we never met
So I implore you, for all these reasons, let's never hear any comparative recording done with any microphones or preamps or mixing boards or cables, ever. The future of our (and Alan's) pocketbook is woefully at risk!!!!
 
There's a guy named Ken Burton that lives in Dallas. He's a computer troubleshooter by day, but he's also one of the best fingerpicking guitarist/singer that I've ever heard. He plays a 1956 Martin D-18 with a paper thin top, and Ken's voice is wonderfully warm and resonant. He's a joy to record.

When I recorded him the first time, I used an old Fairchild condenser mic, about 2 feet away and forehead high, just kinda pointed down at his guitar and it was a perfect blend.

The next time I recorded him, I didn't have the Fairchild (it was being upgraded), so I tried a whole bunch of other mics on him. To my amazement, the original AKG C3000 delivered a stunning sound and we did the entire album with it.

In the 3 years I owned the mic, that's the only time it beat out all my other mics for a specific application. I wound up selling the AKG C3000 for pretty cheap, since it just sat in the mic closet 99% of the time.

My point is that if you were to hear the original recordings, you'd probably go, "Wow, what a great sound. I want that mic.", but you'd be wrong to buy it, based on my recording of Ken Burton. It only worked on Ken and his guitar. It sounded like shit on every other singer and player I ever tried it on.

These shootouts and comparisons don't mean a whole lot to me, because there are too many other variables that are just as important - especially that specific voice and that specific guitar with that specific placement in that specific room.

Sometimes, I've even had to change to a different mic or a different placement when the guitar player changed key or went to a different picking pattern. What was a perfect combination in one key sounded like shit in another key.

The microphone and placement must compliment what you're trying to record. Sometimes bizarre combinations compliment each other and it all works together. Usually, it doesn't. That's why I often recommend an omni, since it doesn't have as much coloration as other mic designs, and it will give you a more accurate picture of the sound, if the instrument sounds good in the room already.

I understand Alan's frustrations very well when people post clips of shootouts and comparisons; it mainly tells you what sounds good on that specific voice and that specific guitar with that specific placement in that specific room. Will that combination give you the same results with your voice and your guitar with your placement in your room? Probably not. Give Alan or me that same mic in the same room with the same player, and we may or may not get you a better sound than you got for that song.

Should we stop doing shootouts and comparisons? Of course not. For a lot of people just getting started, it provides some frame of reference. Just understand that because a specific mic works well in one situation, doesn't mean it will work well in every situation, for everybody.

There are some good vocal mics that won't get you into trouble on a lot of vocals, and there are some good mics that bring out the best in many instruments. I've talked many times here about the mics I find generally useful, and those are usually mics that don't have serious problems in other areas, making them more generally useful for a lot of applications.

The mics I try to avoid recommending usually have bloated mids, harsh highs, or serious peaks and dips in their response. But even those mics will ocassionally be the best choice for a particular application, just not very often.

Vocals are the hardest thing to get right, followed closely by acoustic guitars. Sometimes a cheap dynamic mic can produce magical results for a particular singer; other times, it's an expensive ribbon mic, or a great condenser mic that works best.

When I listen to other people's efforts, two things come to mind; either I think, "Wow, good choice", or I think, "I'd have tried using ___ in that situation". It all boils down to "Does the choice/results best support the musical statement?" Listening to a shootout or comparison may want to make me try a particular combination to see I can get similar results, but I don't ever think that my combinations will work best in every situation for other people.

For me, understanding how the mic's response and polar pattern affect the sound lets me make intelligent choices beforehand about what things will work best in a given situation.

Even though most drummers use our drum set when they come to our studio, I always listen to them play a bit live in the room, before I choose or setup mics. That's why we have 5 different sets of overhead mics to choose from (and sometimes we'll use seemingly strange combinations of overheads for a particular drummer).

Right now, my son Alex is recording a group, using a Sony C38 large diaphragm mic over the ride cymbal, and an Oktava MC012 over the crash. Those are his choices for overheads for THAT particular drummer.

There are things that you can learn from these shootouts and comparisons - what will work best for you isn't one of them.
 
charger said:
Please, no one ever post a comparison of any 2, or 3, or 4, or 5, or 6 mics recording the same source in the same setup ever again. All of us homereccers who can't afford to buy ALL of the mics might be swayed to purchase just one if we actually get to hear the products that people own.

AND IT MIGHT BE THE WRONG ONE!!!

We might have to make our buying decisions based on how we HEAR, instead of other more important factors, like:
  • price
  • list of features
  • website design
  • cool body color
  • name
  • homerecording.com "love factor"
  • the opinion of some dude we never met
So I implore you, for all these reasons, let's never hear any comparative recording done with any microphones or preamps or mixing boards or cables, ever. The future of our (and Alan's) pocketbook is woefully at risk!!!!


amen to your true point charger
 
<sigh> Am I missing something here?

Let's suppose that Person A has a C1000 and a C1 - those are his two best mics. He puts up a sample of those two mics and the C1 sounds best to everybody.

Person B has a 4031 and a C1 and he puts up a sample - the 4031 wins.

Person C has two good mics (a V67G and a C1000) and the C1000 mic sounds better on his guitar.

Person D puts up a shootout of 6 mics (pick any 6 you want) and mic X sounds really good to 80% of the people that post. Mic Y sounds best to about 15% of the people and shitty to about 75% of the people responding.

But are people considering this information for microphone purchases? Are these comparisons telling you a lot about the microphones, or are they more about placement and a particular pleasing combination of a specific mic and a specific guitar, recorded a specific way?

When I see someone recommend a AKG C1000 as a good mic to own, I cringe a little. When I listened it, I found it had some serious high end flaws that didn't make it useful as a general mic for most professional uses, at least, not for my use.

Under some conditions, it may be a great mic for one specific guitar, but not for many, in my humble opinion. Yet a lot of people continue to recommend it as one of the best mics around.

So who's right? Me, because I have access to a lot of mics for comparison and years of experience designing and listening to mics? Or the vast number of people out there who own this mic and find it useful for their needs and for many of them, it's the "best" mic they have?

I guess when all is said and done, whatever "you" decide is best "for you" probably "is" best for you, whether you base that decision on shootouts, other owner's comments, or ads and reviews.

I've tried to limit my "reviews" to good, general purpose mics that won't suck on 90% or so of the things people are likely to use these mics for. I don't like equipment that I have to fight with or make drastic eq adjustments to get a good sound. I basically only want things around me that make it easier to do my job, which is to get someone a good sounding recording.

I'm starting to realize that home recording is very different from professional recording; you're not on the clock to nail a sound, so you have more time to play with things (that I won't touch as a pro), and you'll probably get a lot more use out of it in the process.

Perhaps in the grand scheme of things, my opinions (and Alan's) are far less important to home recordists than either of us realized. In the end, one truth remains; "If it sounds good, it is good".
 
If I hear that saying one more time . . . :) :)

I don't see what the big deal is, really.

After listening to enough of these mic shootouts you kind of start getting an idea for what flavor a particular mic has. For instance, I know from some of these examples posted that the C1 has a certain focus to it, and an aggressiveness in the bass and low mids that I particularly like. Ditto for the Marshall v67. I also know from personal experience that the Rode NT2's have a bit of sheen (aka hype) in the higher frequencies. I have heard these same characteristics in some of the mic shootouts I've heard. I can see this visually when looking at the freq. response pattern on their web site, as well, so it's even further confirmed.

That said, I think it would be awfull silly to base your conclusions on one particular mic shootout, but over time, you start hearing patterns which can indeed form the basis of an overall impression you get from a mic. It's silly to think you couldn't.
 
I think you're essentially right in your last post, Harvey. A home recordist will buy one mic that costs him quite a bit of money (for him). For example, he might put $300 into a C1. At that point, he has basically used his mic money for _x_ amount of time, and from then on, he will make the best of that mic... for everything.

I try to get by on 5 mics, because my studio generates nothing for me but joy. My job generates money, but that money goes to a lot of other things besides my studio, and in the end, I often have to decide between many new pieces of gear with a limited amount of cash... I'm not free to go try out and buy mics at any time. If I was, I'd have a ton of them, and I would have bought every mic that was recommended on this forum by people who have critical ears and vast knowledge.

But in reality, that one C1, or 4033, or NT1, or SM57 is THE mic for a lot of people out there, and they will make it work in situations where people who have far more gear would never use it.

Therefore, I find these kinds of shootouts useful, because I hear people coming from the same relative place I am with a selection of pretty cheap mics, presenting what is in essence a glorified paper frequency curve to me... and like chessrock says, I'm starting to hear their signatures.
 
Sonixx said:
Note: This is not a mic comparison of any kind...it's just two recordings of me playing Mood for a Day (by Steve Howe - YES) using a pair of RÓDE NTK's and a pair of SP-C1's.

sonixx
New Member
Member # 283
posted February 17, 2002 09:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey Michael,
i've posted a Mic Comparison including the NTK and C1 (and others) at Home Recording-Microphones.

check it out and if you will, please post your mic guess.

thanks,
-keith-

Found on Pro Sound Web...Sorry, I just could not help myself :D

Alan Hyatt
 
Re: Re: Mood for a Day with NTK's and C1's

alanhyatt said:


sonixx
New Member
Member # 283
posted February 17, 2002 09:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey Michael,
i've posted a Mic Comparison including the NTK and C1 (and others) at Home Recording-Microphones.

check it out and if you will, please post your mic guess.

thanks,
-keith-

Found on Pro Sound Web...Sorry, I just could not help myself :D

Alan Hyatt
nice try...but that post wasn't referencing this one....

that post was pointing to a previous thread i posted here where i did post a 6 mic comparison...with a picture of the setup...

Alan your memory is short...remember you blasted me there and actually casted doubt that i was truthfull...
 
Last edited:
:)

Sonnix, take it in the spirit it was meant........ya gotta admit it was rather funny.

:cool:
 
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