Monitors vs hi-fi speakers

B

bamboo

New member
Hi all,

I read a lot of opinions on the importance of monitors for obtaining a good a mix. However some points are not quite clear to me.
I've been very much into Hi-Fi for many years now and read quite a lot of books and magazines on the subject. I know that the primary goals in speaker design have always been flat frequency response and good transient characteristics. Over the years, a great deal of research and progress have been made in this area. However, almost 100% of the posters here and elsewhere state that hi-fi speakers/almplifiers, irrespective of their quality, are useless for monitoring. I would like to know the technical reasons for such statements. Why, for example, state-of-the-art $1000 hi-fi speakers are worse than $500 monitors in terms of music production? Or why big floor units are worse than small bookshelf-type ones? Theoretically, a large-size cabinet should have better low end, shouldn't it? Supposing I listen to many different CDs and then try to make my mixdown sound similar on my hi-fi system. What's wrong with that acoustics-wise? Please don't tell me that "everybody's doing it, and so should you, wise guy". What's the physics of it? I will appreciate your comments.

TIA
 
I don't know the physics, but aren't hi-fi speakers made to sound GOOD, whereas studio monitors OTOH are made to sound TRUE?
 
Oysterman is basically correct.

Most hi-fi speakers are not designed with the flattest frequency. There is typically a dip in the midrange which emphasizes the lows and highs.

The frequency response on studio monitors are very close to flat. This means that the sound coming from the monitors is likened to neopolitan ice cream: The three major frequency ranges (low, mid, high) sit almost completely in line with each other. When an average consumer hears something from such a speaker, the tendency is to crank up the lows and highs for more respective power and clarity, and speaker manufacturers know this.

If someone records something using hi-fi speakers as a reference, the tendency will be to drop the lows and raise the mids, and when they play their mix on another set of speakers that may have a flatter frequency response, the mix will sound boxy, lacking in depth, and with highs either distorted or pushed to the limit.

Cy
 
this is true.

i can't afford a pair of decent monitors - so i got my parents old advent II's (pretty nice home speakers).


basically, i mix on them and get similar results. But - thats why i have:
a - 2 speakers set up.
b - am sure to test on computer speakers too (as worthlses as they are).
c - compare to commercial mixes on my speakers.
d - and lastly, most improtant, i'd say. BURN TEST CD'S (OF ROUGH MIXES). AND TAKE THEM TO YOUR CAR, HOME STEREO SYSTEM, FRIEND'S HOUSES, MINI-SYSTEMS, ETC. ETC. ETC.!


take note of everything you hear that should be changed, and on the speakers you were listening on...and if you notice the same problem on most other speakers.

then, fix the problem, and do it all over again. haha.
 
....but aren't hi-fi speakers made to sound GOOD, whereas studio monitors OTOH are made to sound TRUE?...
...Most hi-fi speakers are not designed with the flattest frequency. There is typically a dip in the midrange which emphasizes the lows and highs. ...

Guys, I'm not talking el-cheapo all-in-one stereos, boom-boxes and the like. Long before PC and home recording era, many companies were spending huge amounts of money on acoustic research trying to make speakers with the _flattest_ frequency response possible. New materials were invented to extend frequency response and improve dynamics. Frankly, I've never heard that any of self-respecting manufacturers deliberately introduced distortion into the design of their speakers.
And what about today's hi-end systems? Do you seriously believe that those monsters with price tags you normally see on sports cars have "dip in the midrange to emphasize the lows and highs"? Come on guys, you must be joking.
 
Well, if what you said were true, all the big studios would be using these supposedly flat audiophile hi-fi speakers and there would be no market for studio monitors. Face it - the audiophile community has gone through a bunch of phases, and produced a lot of very expensive, but short-lived products based on pseudoscience, smoke, mirrors and bullshit. Flat speaker response has never been an overriding concern of the hi-fi industry in general, though the occasional individual company may decide to go in that direction (for a while, anyway).

Scott
 
Bamboo, forget frequencies and midrange and stuff. Hi fi speakers are designed to sound good. Hi fi amps are too. Monitors are designed to allow you to mix. My famed (or hated) ns10 yamaha monitors actually sound crap for playing back music. But they are good for mixing. And nearly every studio in the world has a pair of these exact same (and cheap) speakers. So with ns10's you get consistency from studio to studio.
Hi fi speakers can be used in recording but only usefull at mastering. Because thats where your starting to hear the final product. The fact that most monitors dont sound that good is a good thing. It forces you to mix better. If I mixed through a nice pair of 60 thousand dollar hi fi speakers, I wouldn't have to try as hard...........would I. Get it. And the mix would suffer. Getting the low mids to sound good on ns10's is very difficult. Its a difficult area of the frequency range to get right through any monitor. But once you do, it will sound right on any speaker.

Monitor = tool
Hi Fi = Pleasurable listening experience
 
Bamboo- It is impossible to have this discussion over expensive stereo speakers in general. Is there a particular brand or model you are talking about?

In my experience the biggest drawback of using even high quality home stereo speakers is that they just can't handle the wild transients that live tracking creates. They will distort and pop way before studio monitors will. That makes it especially hard to track drums, electric guitars and any other fast transient sources.

You could place a limiter in the monitoring system but then you are not getting the true sound.
 
The fact is that most of the distinctions sited here are complete bullshit.

Many high-end consumer speakers these days are designed with flat response. And many of the cheaper "flat" studio monitors have quite a lot of "smoothing" done to their response curves.

The major generic distinction I see is that professional monitors are typically designed much more conservatively than hi-fi speakers. High-end hi-fi speakers are often at the forefront of designs and materials. Pro speaker manufacturers tend to wait and see which technologies prove themselves in the long run and adopt them slowly. The best pro monitors are usually about 5 or 10 years behind, but based on solid design principles.

And of course, the shape and configuration of many hi-fi speakers do not work well in traditional studio layouts. These considerations are not as big of a concern in mastering studios, so the common mastering monitors often double as hi-fi speakers.

barefoot

http://barefootsound.com
 
i agree with barefoot. high fi (high end) speakers are designed to be as flat and nuetral as possible. most people are thinking of mid fi or lo fi speakers when using the term hifi. high end speakers tend to god awful expensive, very large and frequently very delicate. studio monitors put the emphasis on ruggedness and smoothness through the midrange in a smaller package.
 
barefoot said:
And of course, the shape and configuration of many hi-fi speakers do not work well in traditional studio layouts. These considerations are not as big of a concern in mastering studios, so the common mastering monitors often double as hi-fi speakers.

barefoot
Click to expand...

Barefoot alludes to the key issue here: Hi-fi speakers are not designed to be listened to as close-field monitors. And if you put them 10+ feet away from you, unless you've had a professional acoustician design your listening space, the room will be adding as much to the sound as the speakers themselves.
 
All those graphs and specs etc. are neat to look at and ponder over,but the best test would be to hook 'em up and solo a hot,uncompressed kick drum through them. If the voice coils don't fly out and hit you in the face,go ahead and mix something and see how they work.
 
I've been mix music for 30 yrs, profesionally for 15 now, mixed over 500 singles songs and over 100 albums. I have used probably 50 different speaker brands, playbacks and monitors. The one thing that's
true is that you'll never get a solid, consistant mix that will sound good on
various quality systems unless you use monitors to mix and playbacks to
reference. Remember, whatever you use, your mix has to sound good on ANYBODY's system.
I reference on Advent and Boston Acoustic. I mix, now, only on
Genelec and Tannoy.
The main point I'm making is that if you mix on PB's, which are generally unreliable
sonicly, you'll end up re-doing your mix over and over, making notes until you get it right. By accident. If you can afford hi-end pb's you can afford good monitors.
Monitors allow you to get it done right the first time. Client is happy. You get paid. It's Miller-time.

That's the zen of it.

jef
 
listen to littledog - his point was the right one.

while a flat, translatable frequency response on monitor speakers is important, that's not their primary function. the reason they're used is to lessen the room from the equation - by having the speakers so close to you, you don't have to be mixing in a room with perfectly flat frequency response and ideal reverb (or completely dead.)
 


while a flat, translatable frequency response on monitor speakers is important, that's not their primary function. the reason they're used is to lessen the room from the equation - by having the speakers so close to you, you don't have to be mixing in a room with perfectly flat frequency response and ideal reverb (or completely dead.)
Click to expand...

My opinion on this is that one should spend a significant amount of time, effort
and (if need be) money, making your room treatments work. The thought that
I should use anything to compensate for deficientcies in my mix room is
appauling to me. You'd always be second-guessing yourself as to what you
were "really" hearing.
As for littledog's idea:
A mastering engineer can't save a f*ucked up mix any more than
adding a ton of spice will save a f*ucked up meal.
Mind you, mastering engineers in high places can sometimes salvage a garbage
mix, but your money would be better spent doing it right in the first place.

just my 2 cents

jef
 
jef knight said:
I've been mix music for 30 yrs, profesionally for 15 now, mixed over 500 singles songs and over 100 albums. I have used probably 50 different speaker brands, playbacks and monitors. The one thing that's
true is that you'll never get a solid, consistant mix that will sound good on
various quality systems unless you use monitors to mix and playbacks to
reference. Remember, whatever you use, your mix has to sound good on ANYBODY's system.
I reference on Advent and Boston Acoustic. I mix, now, only on
Genelec and Tannoy.
The main point I'm making is that if you mix on PB's, which are generally unreliable
sonicly, you'll end up re-doing your mix over and over, making notes until you get it right. By accident. If you can afford hi-end pb's you can afford good monitors.
Monitors allow you to get it done right the first time. Client is happy. You get paid. It's Miller-time.

That's the zen of it.

jef
Click to expand...

See, this is what I mean.
This guy comes in here with a million records under his belt and a ton of experience, and he has 'newbie' under his name.
If I guy didn't see one of his posts like this, how the hell would you know not to suggest something stupid? Like, "did you try jiggeling the cord..." or, "are you SURE your speakers are in phase..."
Shees!
:D
 
jef knight said:

As for littledog's idea:
A mastering engineer can't save a f*ucked up mix any more than
adding a ton of spice will save a f*ucked up meal.
Click to expand...

They saved my ass more than a few times.

And you should check out some of my secret spices...
 
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