mentalattica
Just a Home Recorder
For those of you who place your monitors on their sides, do you put your tweeters on the inside and subs on the out or vice versa? Or is it just a preference thing? Thanks.
S
studiomaster
New member
I put the tweeters outside.
CoolCat
Well-known member
I've heard both "sides" too. (no pun intended)
Tweeters out= woofers represent the center stage drums, and you get a wider
stereo image.
Tweeters in= and you have the vocals in the center, like on a stage kind of thing.
I think most studio pics I've seen, majority is on the outside.
Not to forget having them right side up.
you could run a poll, never seen a poll on that one...
Tweeters out= woofers represent the center stage drums, and you get a wider
stereo image.
Tweeters in= and you have the vocals in the center, like on a stage kind of thing.
I think most studio pics I've seen, majority is on the outside.
Not to forget having them right side up.
you could run a poll, never seen a poll on that one...
D
dementedchord
Psychotic State alumni ch
tsk....tsk...
i thought guys had given up on this long ago.....ya might want to gooogle time alingment.... if the tweeters arent in the same relative plane as the woofer the image will move depending on the frequency...... dumb move.....
i thought guys had given up on this long ago.....ya might want to gooogle time alingment.... if the tweeters arent in the same relative plane as the woofer the image will move depending on the frequency...... dumb move.....
J
Jim Y
New member
Second dementedchord.
Though it depends
Not all speakers are designed to be used on their sides. The Yamaha NS10 was passed as ok for this - Tweeter OUT. This is commonly seen in pics hence folk think this is good for all cases - it isn't!
As dementedchord said, it's a matter of on-axis alignment in the sweetspot where the engineer sits.
Check your monitor makers info (most have a website with usage guides).
Then again, they're your speakers, you can put them where you like
Though it depends
Not all speakers are designed to be used on their sides. The Yamaha NS10 was passed as ok for this - Tweeter OUT. This is commonly seen in pics hence folk think this is good for all cases - it isn't!
As dementedchord said, it's a matter of on-axis alignment in the sweetspot where the engineer sits.
Check your monitor makers info (most have a website with usage guides).
Then again, they're your speakers, you can put them where you like
J
jonnyc
New member
dementedchord said:
Guess all those pro's with ns10's on their sides have been doing it wrong for years. There are plenty who'll call that theory total horseshit. I've never once had an issue with my monitors being on their sides in fact the owners manual says they can be placed either way with no difference in mix quality, which is what I've found to be true. It's more about what works for you. I've even had one jackass tell me I need to spin my tweeters around if I have them on their sides. My theory is as long as your owners manual doesn't say not to, then try it. It never hurts to try something.
X
xstatic
New member
How would turning a speaker on its side affect the "relative plane"? In one config they are on the same vertical plane. On the other they are on the same horizontal plane.
I find that which side the tweeters should go on often is dictated by placement in the room compared to distance you listen from compared to how wide they are spread apart. Tweeters to the outside results in a wider image not because of drums or guitars ion the woofers or anything, but because higher frequencies tend to be more directional and we tend to translate them better as far as determining location. Thus, tweeters wider equals steroe image wider. The same is true for putting them to the inside. Tweeters closer equals image narrower, which often will give the effect of the vocal being closer.
I find that which side the tweeters should go on often is dictated by placement in the room compared to distance you listen from compared to how wide they are spread apart. Tweeters to the outside results in a wider image not because of drums or guitars ion the woofers or anything, but because higher frequencies tend to be more directional and we tend to translate them better as far as determining location. Thus, tweeters wider equals steroe image wider. The same is true for putting them to the inside. Tweeters closer equals image narrower, which often will give the effect of the vocal being closer.
mentalattica
Just a Home Recorder
xstatic said:
That makes sense.
I have seen them both ways so was just curious to if one was was technically incorrect. From what I am getting from this thread it would seem to be preference if ofcourse your owners manual says do not place them on their sides.
X
xstatic
New member
Some monitors in some rooms sound better one way or the other. I would always consult your manual in case it explains a specific reason not to, but experimenting is also good
gummblefish
Twitchy Wanker
what about upside down facing into a fish tank? Anyone see any problems with this? sometimes i mix with them behind me, tho i compensate my spinning round and round on my chair until i throw up, i then film the vomit, and record the sound separately and sync them up. Once this is done i feed it back through a separate set of speakers that are connected to a cereal box on a skate board. Sometimes i bounce a mix down onto an ipod and swallow the ear phones, i then mic up my stomach and feed it back through the main monitors and add it to the overall mix. It's quite amazing results. Anyone want to pay me?
J
jonnyc
New member
gummblefish said:
Sweeeeet!!!! So does the spinning thing give you the Leslie effect when mixing. Think about it, effects without actually effecting anything. Just when I think we've hit a plateu Gummble comes on and rewrites the book. On a serious note, John Scrip of Massive Mastering said he used his monitors upside down at one point, or at least I think that was him. BTW I'm going to buy a fishtank. Do I get a great big one for the pair or like a 20 gallon for each speaker, and do I put them in the tank or just face it.
gummblefish
Twitchy Wanker
yeah its great when you dont have much ram capacity, you can also put your hands over your ears, then off, then on, then off etc. thats a great effect. i never do fades with the faders i usually get somebody to run down the road with the speakers at high volumes and i record that. For spacial positioning i throw the speakers about, some times great distances...next week im gonna mix a project whilst falling from 10,000 feet, dosent give me much time but its such afree way to mix.
D
dementedchord
Psychotic State alumni ch
fwiw
if your tweeters (as an example) are "wider" than your woofers then an instrument playing in the range around the crossoverpoint tend to travel with the frequency some refer to it as "smear" relative plane was used here to indicate a cohesive arrival time for all instruments/frequency ranges
if your tweeters (as an example) are "wider" than your woofers then an instrument playing in the range around the crossoverpoint tend to travel with the frequency some refer to it as "smear" relative plane was used here to indicate a cohesive arrival time for all instruments/frequency ranges
X
xstatic
New member
If this was true, why do so many reputable monitor manufacturers reccomend you try it both ways? Why are some monitors arranged with offset tweeters? Also, if this were true, than any vertical movement by the listener would give the same effect. Every monitor is designed differently. I would try and not let a blanket statement that most likely holds no truth affect your decision to at least try it
S
studiomaster
New member
I know that Event recommends you to do that.
J
Jim Y
New member
I'll offer a link...
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov00/articles/ustandingmons.htm
... which doesn't directly address this issue, but does explain some of the physics without maths - axial frequency response etc.
It is all a matter of acoustics, a science that most of us ignore, despite it being at the root of what we're about.
Speaker manufacturers basically want us to use their product, so are not going to tell you can't use them how you want to if another brand does say you can. KRK boldly make theirs a shape that you wouldn't want to put on its side - saves them telling you not to. What about all the designs with rear bass ports? How many of those say in big letters on the box - "Do not use against a wall"?
Yes, you see speakers on their sides on the meter bridge in pro studios, but commercial music isn't made market ready there and they place them so because it's practical and convenient. Also, to impress clients, they have high quality soffit mounted "mains" to demo over. The next stop for the music is the mastering suite where you certainly will not find speakers on their sides, nor will they be atop a console, shelf or desktop. The mix engineer only has to get a balanced mix, the mastering engineer will fine tune it later and needs as much monitoring accuracy as possible.
Most home/small band/hobby studios though are having to do the whole process to the finished CD or Mp3, so I'd suggest it pays them to take monitoring accuracy a little more seriously. Your needs are closer to the Mastering Engineers than those of the studio mix engineer.
The business of on/off axis response and driver coherence and cabinet diffraction and early reflections etc, etc ... is certainly all somewhat technical. It is ommited from most product owners manuals because it is considered too difficult to explain and in a dumbed-down world, who wants to know?
If you do read up on the finer points of speaker design, positioning and the impact of room acoustics, you may reach the same conclusion I have - Speakers are pretty much helpless creatures - you cannot just expect accurate reproduction whatever you do, no matter what the specs were or how much they cost. Your room and the speakers position in it have to be good and these are factors more significant to monitoring accuracy than anything else. Ignore the physics if you like, its a free choice.
Given an acoustically good room, the narrow notches in frequency response cause by off-axis response errors, console reflections etc, are not as bad a problem as a measured response test might indicate - it doesn't in practice prevent getting a good mix. The room is the clincher - pro control rooms are acoustically designed to sound good. If your room is not like this, then don't expect doing what the pros do to work that well for you also.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov00/articles/ustandingmons.htm
... which doesn't directly address this issue, but does explain some of the physics without maths - axial frequency response etc.
It is all a matter of acoustics, a science that most of us ignore, despite it being at the root of what we're about.
Speaker manufacturers basically want us to use their product, so are not going to tell you can't use them how you want to if another brand does say you can. KRK boldly make theirs a shape that you wouldn't want to put on its side - saves them telling you not to. What about all the designs with rear bass ports? How many of those say in big letters on the box - "Do not use against a wall"?
Yes, you see speakers on their sides on the meter bridge in pro studios, but commercial music isn't made market ready there and they place them so because it's practical and convenient. Also, to impress clients, they have high quality soffit mounted "mains" to demo over. The next stop for the music is the mastering suite where you certainly will not find speakers on their sides, nor will they be atop a console, shelf or desktop. The mix engineer only has to get a balanced mix, the mastering engineer will fine tune it later and needs as much monitoring accuracy as possible.
Most home/small band/hobby studios though are having to do the whole process to the finished CD or Mp3, so I'd suggest it pays them to take monitoring accuracy a little more seriously. Your needs are closer to the Mastering Engineers than those of the studio mix engineer.
The business of on/off axis response and driver coherence and cabinet diffraction and early reflections etc, etc ... is certainly all somewhat technical. It is ommited from most product owners manuals because it is considered too difficult to explain and in a dumbed-down world, who wants to know?
If you do read up on the finer points of speaker design, positioning and the impact of room acoustics, you may reach the same conclusion I have - Speakers are pretty much helpless creatures - you cannot just expect accurate reproduction whatever you do, no matter what the specs were or how much they cost. Your room and the speakers position in it have to be good and these are factors more significant to monitoring accuracy than anything else. Ignore the physics if you like, its a free choice.
Given an acoustically good room, the narrow notches in frequency response cause by off-axis response errors, console reflections etc, are not as bad a problem as a measured response test might indicate - it doesn't in practice prevent getting a good mix. The room is the clincher - pro control rooms are acoustically designed to sound good. If your room is not like this, then don't expect doing what the pros do to work that well for you also.
CoolCat
Well-known member
i was just thinking with a monitor on its side, lets say Tweeter on Outside, most manuals and setup guides recommend the NEARFIELD monitors are then angled towrd the M.E.
wouldn't this angle effect the time alignment?
in other words, many speaker OEM's recess the tweeter (JBL 6300) or some even protrude the driver (JBL potbellys) to align the drivers center to be flush with the tweeter.
so...if we go adding "angles" doesn't this mess things up?
aahhhh...according to all the technology and theory, theoretically, every CD i've ever listened to must have sounded like SHIT?
because my room is small, horribley treated, and I have ears that compress and amplify every damn thing!!!..I'm depressed now.
wouldn't this angle effect the time alignment?
in other words, many speaker OEM's recess the tweeter (JBL 6300) or some even protrude the driver (JBL potbellys) to align the drivers center to be flush with the tweeter.
so...if we go adding "angles" doesn't this mess things up?
aahhhh...according to all the technology and theory, theoretically, every CD i've ever listened to must have sounded like SHIT?
because my room is small, horribley treated, and I have ears that compress and amplify every damn thing!!!..I'm depressed now.
J
Jim Y
New member
Spot on coolcat.
The drivers are aligned in the baffle to suit a particular mounting.
Auralex sell Mo-pads which can provide tilt back or forward for vertical mounted speakers where the mounting is too low or high compared to the listeners ears. These also isolate the speakers pretty well. I know they look like a gimmick, but I'd recommend them.
The drivers are aligned in the baffle to suit a particular mounting.
Auralex sell Mo-pads which can provide tilt back or forward for vertical mounted speakers where the mounting is too low or high compared to the listeners ears. These also isolate the speakers pretty well. I know they look like a gimmick, but I'd recommend them.
X
xstatic
New member
Any way you look at it, MANY of the high end monitor manufacturers list reasons to tip them on their sides and reasons not too. Every situation is different. It all depends on your room like mentioned above, but beyond that, the design of the speaker. There are many high end monitors that are also actually designed to lay on their sides.
As a point of reference, it is not more practical to lay them on their sides. It would actually be more practical to stand them up. I also do not think that KRK designed their monitors with an odd shape to keep them from being laid on their sides. For one, the Rokits and K Roks that are designed like that are bottom of the barrel KRK's. The Expose series is rectangular.....
As a point of reference, it is not more practical to lay them on their sides. It would actually be more practical to stand them up. I also do not think that KRK designed their monitors with an odd shape to keep them from being laid on their sides. For one, the Rokits and K Roks that are designed like that are bottom of the barrel KRK's. The Expose series is rectangular.....
J
Jim Y
New member
It is more practical to lay them on the side if...
A. The tweeter would be over head height if vertical.
B. You want a wider listening field because more than one person is working at the console.
C. You like them like that.
D. You're used to how it sounds like that.
E. Putting them on the side lowers the tweeter, reducing the console bounce path distance and raises the cancelation frequency above the critical mid band.
F. The tweeter is offset so if on side, the time alignment with woofer is maintained.
G. They get knocked over by stoned musicians too easily if standing up.
Are those not practical reasons then?
Incidentally, the NS10 wasn't designed as a nearfield monitor but a shelf or stand mounted hi-fi speaker.
I was partly joking about the KRK shape, but obviously they expect them to be used only in the vertical or wouldn't have used that shape in the first place. Logical ?
Rectangular isn't the perfect shape for a speaker. There probably is no ideal shape since physics conspire to make something else worse whatever you change, either audibly or in usability. Generally, people expect rectangular boxes so that's what they mostly make. It's a compromise we can live with.
Has nobody been able to read that link I gave?
A. The tweeter would be over head height if vertical.
B. You want a wider listening field because more than one person is working at the console.
C. You like them like that.
D. You're used to how it sounds like that.
E. Putting them on the side lowers the tweeter, reducing the console bounce path distance and raises the cancelation frequency above the critical mid band.
F. The tweeter is offset so if on side, the time alignment with woofer is maintained.
G. They get knocked over by stoned musicians too easily if standing up.
Are those not practical reasons then?
Incidentally, the NS10 wasn't designed as a nearfield monitor but a shelf or stand mounted hi-fi speaker.
I was partly joking about the KRK shape, but obviously they expect them to be used only in the vertical or wouldn't have used that shape in the first place. Logical ?
Rectangular isn't the perfect shape for a speaker. There probably is no ideal shape since physics conspire to make something else worse whatever you change, either audibly or in usability. Generally, people expect rectangular boxes so that's what they mostly make. It's a compromise we can live with.
Has nobody been able to read that link I gave?