Monitors...may want to try this

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CoolCat

CoolCat

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Thought someone might enjoy this article.

Instead of Remember the Alamo!...in the mixing world it's Remember the Auratone!

The full article reminded us of why "small cube speakers" were introduced by the Pro's in the 1970's and still in use today;
To duplicate/replicate the average listeners stereo, which was in the 70's the car stereo was turning out to be a huge seller.
(Millions of HiFi cassette players in the car, man...can you dig it!).

Also, summarized..Near Fields are desinged for close range listening (near field), and Home type speakers are designed for long throw listening (why they don't work real well), and how we home recording nuts want a flat speaker response so the mixes are more universal from the crap/evil WalMart boom boxes to average joe's BestBuy Home stereo.

ARTICLE/excerpt:
This point was brought home to me recently as I chatted with ace mix engineer Chris Lord-Alge. With multiple platinum credits to his name, Lord-Alge certainly qualifies as an “expert” on the subject of monitoring, at least in the sense that he knows what it takes to turn out mixes that sound great across the board, from boom box to high-end audiophile system. And just as surely, Lord-Alge has attained success enough to acquire and use any monitor he wants. So what monitors does he use? The latest, greatest, most expensive ones available? Not at all. Rather, Lord-Alge uses the same monitors he has mixed on for most of his career: a pair of Yamaha NS-10Ms. “The key thing with any monitors,” explains Lord-Alge, “is that you get used to them. That's ultimately what makes them work for you. And 25 years on NS-10s hasn't led me wrong yet.”

CAN OF WORMS

This brings us to a can of worms I'd just as soon not open — but open it we must if we're to inquire seriously into the nature of reference monitoring. Anyone who has searched for the “perfect” monitor has run smack into this dilemma, which is best summed up by these questions: Who, ultimately, are you mixing for? The snooty audiophile with speakers that cost more than most folks' cars? Or the masses who listen to music on cheap systems?

Lord-Alge's answer is enlightening: “Ninety-five percent of people listen to music in their car or on a cheap home stereo; 5 percent may have better systems; and maybe 1 percent have a $20,000 stereo. So if it doesn't sound good on something small, what's the point? You can mix in front of these huge, beautiful, pristine, $10,000 powered monitors all you want. But no one else has those monitors, so you're more likely to end up with a translation problem.”

Similarly, I learned a few years ago that John Leventhal, who was one of my heroes at the time, did the bulk of his mixing on a pair of small Radio Shack speakers. (Leventhal, a New York City-based guitarist, songwriter, and engineer, made his mark by producing Shawn Colvin's acclaimed 1989 record, Steady On.) Leventhal owns both a pair of Yamaha NS-10Ms and a pair of Radio Shack Optimus 7s. But he prefers the latter.


So COOL? yes?..pumped up?...running for the garage sales to find some old unwanted Mini 7's for $10 a pair, are you?....think how many Optimus 7's you could buy with one Platinum mix!

So yes, I blew the dust off my garage sale Optimus 7's ($5)...did a few mixes...and I'll be damned if the mix didn't fly alright in my car stereo. I also have a NS10 copy Nearfields.
The 7's are a nice compimentary speaker set if you don't own Auratones. Will they be my favorite like JL's?

The 7's don't play too loud, so it prevented some ear burn out.
Now for the tech heads.. there are different flavors of 7's...Minimus 7's, Optimus 7's..and the current RCA 7's model (with bass port?)..~$60.00 pair.
Will the originals become collector items?

...does this mean I saved $10,000 on studio monitors.? hee,he
 
A COUPLE OF POINTS -

Before you get too excited....

1 - the ability to mix on a variety or monitors and especially on sonically-less-than monitors sort of presumes some serious level of skill/experience on the part of the engineer. If you let yourself believe a novice will turn out a great mix simply because they're using NS-10s, you're in for a big shock...

2 - you're ignoring one huge part of the process.... even if you do use small monitors to mix with, you still need to have good monitors to hear exactly what you're laying down during the tracking process. If you can't properly hear what's "going-to-tape", you can't be sure that what you're recording doesn't sound like a big pile of dog-crap...!

It's crucial that you have monitors that let you hear what you're recording -- and you won't get that from a pair of NS-10s or Radio Scrap jobs.....
 
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"you can't be sure that what you're recording doesn't sound like a big pile of dog-crap...!"

S'matter? Don't like dogs?

So, how's this approach: good monitors for tracking cuz you need to hear what's there; crap monitors for mixing, cuz if it sounds good through crap, it'll sound good through anything LOL.

You still gotta learn the monitors, though, no matter *how* crappy they are LOL.
 
I'm positive thats it's just what you're used to. I'm a real newbie at this, and frankly failing right now.

But when I imported some pantera to Sonar and heard it on my crappy setup, I learned a TON.

Not everything was what I expected, and now i'm gunna start all over again on my learning phase to get it right.

Simple solution: If it sounds good on your cheapy monitors, then downmix the song and play it a couple more places. More than likely.... you'll just have to make a few minor tweaks here and there... but only because you have less-than-desirable monitors to start with.

Overall, having crappier speakers, just may mean spending an extra 5-10 minutes editing =)
 
It's true that the vast majority of people listen through cheap systems. Believe it or not, however, those cheap consumer systems are far better than they were 20 years ago when the NS10 and Auratone where "state of the art". Maybe there was a reason why the audiophiles were the first to realize that all those early digital recordings sound like ass?

Consumer grade gear is continually improving, just like pro gear, just like computers, etc. Now there's DVD-Audio and SACD, one of which will likely take hold. Which of today's recordings will people look on back and say "damn, that sounds like ass!"? My guess is many of those will be the ones recorded and mixed on low resolution, anachronistic monitors like NS10s.

Thomas

http://barefootsound.com
 
monitors...

what i see as a proactive inputs here is "you got to learn your monitors no matter what model".

with that said then..you would be refering that it was actually John Leventhals expertise and not the Optimus 7's? He could have done a good mix using maybe anything? ok, but....
one thing tho, here are proven Engineers who can afford anything, but yet they still have a set of Optimus 7's and/or Auratones cubes as one of their tools, in addition to the $10,000 speakers and others.

but back to mixing for the average listeners setup, yes this has changed. Equipment changes as barefoot said.....

Do you agree?
In " crap-average home-monitor speaker" theory then if we are mixing for the masses, the masses at this point in time, probably 95% of average home stereo owners,
have surround dink speakers with a sub-woofer from BEST BUY-WalMart or worse.....so is it time for Optimus 7's/Auratones+ with sub-woofer as our "average home-reference monitors", computer speakers?
Because, thats what the masses are listening to.
Download Nowhere Radio mixes on what...plastic computer speakers... with a plastic sub-woofer...whoooa, they sound alright I guess. downloaded MP3's....to play on a walkman.
but hey thats what all my kids and their friends are doing...and a portable Walkman with dinky little plastic headphones.

I like the Optimus 7's, the mix transferred to my car setup really well. Maybe what I compared to is relevant, some RAM Studio Reference monitors/ current Guitar Center type 2/way flat response..yadayada..sound like Alesis ones..sound like...

What's my goal, i'm sick of burning 12 CDR's on the same tune..trying to get my wifes boom-box, my car stereo, computer speakers and my home stereo mix to be decent...best as it can be.
Hopefully someone will shed some light on this for me....
and why do some spend thousands at a million dolloar studio and then it stills needs mastering? hee,he

time to go listen to some Nowhereradio...
with my Advent plastic computer speakers w/ plastic sub-wooofer

Rubber Soul.
 
Another thing you have to realize is that even though some of these 'star' engineers might be monitoring through NS10s...... they're doing it in control rooms that cost more than the average person's house. Have you considered your studio acoustics?

Thomas

http://barefootsound.com
 
It boils down to using what you have to get a good result. If you learn how to do that, it doesn't really matter much what gear you actually had to do it with.

Ed
 
monitors...Home recording

with that said, leaving the "pro" studios out of the picture..this is Homerecording.com, after all.....I've got to move on to some writing difficulties.


But I want to add one more SUMMARY, you could call it:

1) I would recommend small "crap" speakers in the set-up, just to check the mix if nothing else.

2) And Radio Shack Optimus 7's make a really great "CRAPPY" speaker. I'm very happy with how these speakers work at being "Crappy"

....heee,,heee...i make myself laugh sometimes.


plastic computer speakers and plastic sub-woofers....
it's all part of a conspiracy...sssshhhh
 
Ed Dixon said:
It boils down to using what you have to get a good result. If you learn how to do that, it doesn't really matter much what gear you actually had to do it with.
I disagree. Your gear, or lack of gear, certainly shouldn't stop you from trying to do the best work you can.... but gear most definitely does have an impact on the final result.

Do you think Lance Armstrong would have won the Tour De France if he had been riding an old steel frame bicycle? No way. The other riders with their carbon fiber bikes would have left him in the dust. Of course, a steel frame bike would make him no less of a great athlete.... but he's not going to win any races riding one.

If you truly want to stay near the head of the modern pack, you need the modern tools.

Thomas

http://barefootsound.com
 
barefoot said:
I disagree. Your gear, or lack of gear, certainly shouldn't stop you from trying to do the best work you can.... but gear most definitely does have an impact on the final result.
http://barefootsound.com

Agree completely. My point was not that gear does not make a difference, but that given the gear we have, we do best by learning how to use it most effectively.

If you gave me Lance's bike, I probably could not outrun the local trash truck. I bet Lance could ride my wife's bike and outrun most folks anywhere.

Ed
 
one week later...

amen...it's knowing the gear. I din't mean to offend anyone saying that a gifted engineer can use a Optimus 7 and go platinum, when some rich ametuers have spent $10,000 on equipment and hasn't got his sound down yet.
(and lost touch with the masses that are using their computer speakers as their modern day home stereo).

you can't buy talent & expensive equipment doesn't guarentee sht if your tone deaf and just a rich puke trying to buy problems away...and you may fall off a your steel bicycle while riding to Radio Shack to buy Optimus 7's.

(bitter, yes, because i have wondered around GC too many hours, wondering how i can "buy" my talent, when I should have been learning how to mix better and know my setup...now I see the fhkng lite!!)

I guess thats why I threw the article in here, to maybe save some other engy type, from falling into gear addiction, strolling aimlessly threw GC like a zombie, hoping a holy grail will appear shining a light on them saying...BUY THE BEHRINGER PRO ULTRA IT WILL FIX ALL YOUR FHKNG MIX TRANSFER PROBLEMS SO BE IT>>>$69.99....>>>

LEarn to MIX man, I can dig it....don't learn to be a fhkn shopper, yeah thats the moral of the thread.....can you dig a pony?

TESTING:Optimus/RCA 7's:
The 7's are gear in my small homerecording setup.
Past week, a few mixes later, the 7's mix transferred more universally than my headphone mixes for sure.
my studio reference monitors seem to transfer a bit more high end. 7's are Built like a tank, and cheap.....very well engineered speaker. I'd recommend them to any homerecordist looking to add a small spkr set.

and yes If I get a platinum, I'll buy a $10,000 fhkn dollar speakers and Krell amps and I'll update this thread with results.
 
i forgot to ask?

so no one here has really said.
Do you all have a small speaker set to check your mixes with?

just curious.
 
I think one should check their mixes on as many different types of systems as they can. Or as many that is still practical and makes sense for them.
 
I'm *trying* to mix through my band's PA system.

Then when I think I might have something, I'll mix down, and take a listen on my computer speakers.
 
from PA to plastic compter speaker

PA speakers, yeah....thats a tuff playback for home recorded stuff.
PA to computer speakers...daaaang what a range....

Thats the whole challenge..How do you get a decent mix to satisfy PA to plastic computer module speakers? without burning 28 CDR's tweaking.
Thats the MAIN GOAL of mixing expertise (i fold.. equipment too) is to have a transferrable mix, without burning 203 CDR's to satisfy all the playbacks on crap systems (less than perfect tuned audiophile high end stuff= crap). A Universal mix!!and all the angels come...

THE HOME RECORDING MIXING SCENARIO:
byElmst Fuddwhckrthengerbaldonkeypenuts

My brother just mixed a tune he wrote for his wedding.
We listened to it 20 times in the Bedroom studio, sounded 'great' thru headphones, sounded 'good' thru his studio monitors (solo Bose cube "auratone type" and large home speakers set 8 feet away.)
Downstairs during the Ceremony, average Home stereo with people in the room.. song sounded..'uhh ok'....

later at the Reception playing thru a PA DJ setup...it was BOOMBOOM BOOOM...muffledvocals..BOOMBOOMM, thin keyboards...BOOMMMBOOMM.....oh my gawd!!almost embarassing, well it was embarrassing from an audio standpoint!!! sounded like "ASS"...(i learned that word on this forum)

...but hey everyone was drunk by then...
No it wasn't the DJ, the store bought CD's sounded fine thru the PA.

So I took home a CDR mix of his song and listened to it in my car stereo for 5 days straight......sounded good/very decent.

Mick Jagger wrote: You can't always get what you want, and sometimes......sometimes all you get is "ass".
 
I don't have to mix down and burn tons of cd's.

My computer is hooked up directly to the PA system. One hell of a jukebox =)

I simply mix down to listen on my computer speakers.

I figure if I can make it sound at least half ass on both systems, then I pretty much got all the bases covered..... yeah, it's a bitch. =)
 
it is possible (though i consider said possibility remote) to master an album with garbage speakers and have it sound good. however, there is no way to possibly produce consistent results in the face of critical listening (read: listening with something that isn't garbage and actually paying attention) without using monitors that perform as well or better than pretty decent home equipment (by "better", i mean "more accurately"). if you want a real, scrutiny-defying production, you must use better equipment than 99.999999% of listeners to have any shot of what's really going on, otherwise you will be sorry once someone with a real stereo pops your work in.

simple mixes recorded with good old warm reliable equipment have a slightly better shot of being done on crappy speakers and working out, but that has to do with the ear-pleasing nature of the distortion (in terms of aural pleasingness in general, tubes>solid state>digital regarding distortion style) more than the true listening talent of the mastering engineer in almost all cases, if not all.

that said, once you have mastered on the most accurate monitors/speakers/whatever (i mean, we are home recording here) you can get to, play it at varying volumes on EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF SOUND-EMITTING EQUIPMENT POSSIBLE. time and patience can make up for some of the nice equipment, so long as you aren't expecting people to play your work on seriously audiophile-quality equipment.
 
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