monitoring flat

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S8-N

S8-N

..|.. Part-time Antichrist ..|..
I just got a set of Event 20/20P's and I have always heard that you should monitor with a flat EQ but it sounds ten times better with a bit of high end added and a chunk of low end added.
If i play my favorite CD through my monitors and add a touch of EQ untill it sounds good, can't I mix my own stuff while keeping these same EQ settings? Would't the key be in not changing the EQ settings once you found a sound you liked?
When I try to monitor flat... I can't hear cymbals or subwoofer stuff very clearly... Is a little boost really that bad???
 
Do you mean you can't hear it on your own stuff or on commercial CDs? If the former...I hope you know what that means. If the latter...perhaps you've been turning it up to 11 a bit too much.

I refer you to the main site. The purpose of good mixing monitors is not for them to sound good or to make your music sound good. It's so you can hear what your music really sounds like, so you can make it sound good!
 
I think that Dragon has a pretty good point here. I replied to a post by I think Fishmed one time about using EQ to the monitors. The problem is that your signal is going to get phase shifted. Adding any filter to an audio signal will do this. That is why there is so much emphasis on getting the kind of sound you want going to tape. Having to add EQ to anything is going to have some drawbacks. You also have to consider the quality of any EQ that you apply. I am sorry to say, but if you didn't pay a small fortune for that EQ, whether it be digital, or analog, it is not going to be THAT great.

The next thing that is important to address here with your monitors is the signal path. If ANYTHING in your monitor signal path is bad, your mixes will reflect this. Even in the case that you are listening to alot of pro mixes through it. Bottom line here, buy some Monster Studio Link 1000 audio and speaker cable for your monitor path. I can't even begin to tell you the difference in the quality of the sound when you use this wire. You can start hearing things that you couldn't before. Next, you gotta have an amp that rocks! I have a Hafler P-3000. This amp is like minimum studio grade stuff. I have listened to my same monitors through other amps and could really tell the difference. But at about $700-800, this amp is not for the financially challenged.

Now, if you are having trouble hearing the high's and low's through Event 20/20's, time for a good old hearing check S8-N. I think that in your fall from grace with the big guy upstairs, he might have planted a few bugs genetically in you...... :) (all in fun here). But to be serious, I really would pay very close attention to how loud you are monitoring.

What I have found is that when I need to monitor for very long periods of time, if I have them up too loud, I tend to start doing some very funky things with the EQ on induvidual tracks. This is not a good thing. I have to constantly remind myself to keep things quiet on those long mixes. Especially in the case that clients pay me to hear things that they don't, I can't afford to suffer from ear fatigue.

Also, low end build up has to be the number one offender in a control room. Your room needs to solve a lot of problems with phase cancellation and what not for you to start getting accurate low end. Resonating walls, phase cancellation, reverberation times, etc...in the room will have a dramatic effect on how you hear things. This includes pro music you listen to through your system.

Now, about the low's and high's, as an engineer, you have to think in terms of what is good for the music, more than your own preferences. I really dig that "scooped" out sound myself, but it is not the way to actually conduct a mix, unless I know for a fact that the person that will be listening to the product will have a similar system and room to mine, and also has the same taste in EQ. The idea in mixing is to give the listener a well balanced mix sonically speaking. Too much emphasis in any realm will not give the end user the chance to adjust to THEIR preferences, which could really differ from yours. This is the reality of engineering. You can't really have it the way you want if you are trying to make money off of it. You gotta strive to deliver a versatile product that allows the buyer some options so to speak. Also in the digital realm, low end is deeper, and reproduced much better than analog. And with issues concerning bit resolution, the high end really needs some attention and some presence when working with digital because of digitals funkyness in the high end that is inherent. By chewing up meters with low end, you don't really have much room for the frequencies that need all the help it can get.

Anyway, I am starting an essay here, and this is the wrong place for that. The Events do tend to be a bit weird in the low end, but also work with low end much better than many other monitors. Just listen to a lot of stuff and try to emulate what sounds good to you if it is appropriate.

Good luck.
Ed
 
Hey Ed,
I think that you might be onto something with the high frequency hearing loss theory... However... the genetic bugs you speak of were planted (I was born in Arkansas) way before my "fall from grace"...
I've been playing live shows for 8 years now without wearing hearing protection... (You try singing with earplugs in...) I can't play with any kind of conviction wearing earplugs... I knew the risks...
I don't understand how I'm getting my signal out of phase since I'm not inserting any devices into the signalpath... I'm just adding a touch of EQ through the parametrics built in to my mixer... The signal has to go through the EQ's whether they are flat or not...
The monster cables are a good idea also... They made a huge difference in the sound quality of my home stereo...
Maybe my mixer has something to do with it... It's a $350 Alesis... Maybe it has cheap connections that are squashing the signal... I don't know... All I know is that with the parametric EQ's set flat... I have a hard time hearing what is going on in cymbal land...
I'm finishing up a new piece that will be mixed through my new Events... I will post it and you can judge for yourself if I'm placing the highs and lows correctly... Although the MP3 format effects those things...
 
Hey S8-N, let me clarify, not "out of phase", but rather "phase shifted". EQ's are a type of filters. Filters because of their resistance to signal "shift the phase" of the signal a bit. Better filters do this less than crappy filters. So when I refered to this, what I meant is that any EQ you are using in the monitor path is phase shifting the signal you are hearing a bit. So, you would be making critical EQ and volume changes to your mix from a corrupted signal. Out of phase would is an appropriate description, but usually refers to when a stereo source is out of phase, meaning one channel is 180 degrees out of phase with the other, which would cause a significant amount of low end loss. But the theory still applies here in that when a signal is phase shifted at all, things will sound a bit funny from what it originally sounded like. All the frequencies will still be there, but the phase shifted freqs will be masked by in phase freqs.

EQ is okay on source stuff, if that is the effect you are after. But in the monitor path, this can really lead you to do things with the mix that may be unnecessary. So, it would be well to remove that EQ from the path. But I have a question, how are you getting signal from your mix down device back to the console? And where is your monitor amp getting its signal from? Is there a control room output from the console that you feed the monitor power amp with? Are you monitoring the output of the mixdown deck? If not, that is where you would want to monitor because it is exactly what is going into the deck for mixdown. Monitoring the stereo buss of the console will not give you a true signal because it would be before the cables going to mix down deck, which these cables could be affecting the sound.

I have never used the Alesis console, but for $350 bucks, you are probably not getting the best that is available. Well, okay, that is far from the best available. But I doubt that the console is doing anything terribly significant at the output.

Maybe you could explain your whole signal path to me. You are using a soundcard to record to hard drive correct? You are using the console as a way to have mic pre's and to mix? What are you mixing to? DAT? CDR? The hard drive? What inputs are you using on the console to monitor the tracks? Where is your monitor amp getting its feed from? How are you monitoring your mix down deck to your monitors? What kind of cableing are you using? Let me know all of this and we can maybe figure out if maybe there might be a problem with connections or what not. Definately post the MP3 for me to download.

Ed
 
I hate to say this, S8-N, but if it's cymbals you're having trouble hearing, you should visit your local audiologist pronto. You might not get your hearing back but you might realize how much you've lost, and you can learn how to prevent it from happening in the future. And in such a case, you might indeed have to boost your EQ permanently, but the tests will show you exactly how much and in what bands so the end result will sound flat to you. Good luck, my friend...and please take this seriously, it's serious.

URLs:
http://www.hearnet.com/text/mainframe.html http://www.betterhearing.org/index.htm http://www.asha.org/consumers/brochures/noise.htm http://www.searchwave.com/search/searchwave.cgi

BTW -- after being in a band where I had to stand near the cymbals -- I got a set of custom-made earplugs (yes, they poured some kinda goop in my ears to make the mold). They cut down the sound level like crazy, but, thanks to a special channel, you don't have that pressure buildup in your head that makes it feel like you have earplugs in, and it doesn't totally wipe out the high frequencies, just the edginess thereof. I can hang out right in front of giant speaker cabs and not have any problems whatever, and nobody can see them so I don't feel like I have a wooden leg or something (another advantage of being a longhair :-) These things only cost about $40, BTW.

[This message has been edited by Dragon (edited 10-01-1999).]
 
This is a serious issue; especially to the younger folk that might tune in to this thread. I know the music sounds better LOUD. I know your band sounds better LOUD, but keep in mind the damage you are doing to your ears!
I remember back in Jr. High school, I used to hang with a bunch of cool musician types. We went to see a show one night, and the coolest of the cool, the Fonzi of the crowd, if you will, wore earplugs.
After that he was considered a nerd. Why? For protecting his hearing. YES> At the time it was uncool to give a sh*t about your future, but c'mon, that is just plain stupidity, looking back with some remorse, of the whole "macho" image of rock & roll really is contradicting.
I guess my point is this: Don't you want to hear the wonderful things that you've created? Or would you rather be happy just wondering what everyone else hears (because you can't)?

P.S. This is not directed towards you, S8-N, or anyone else, I just thought Dragon brought up a really good point that ought to be explored.

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 10-02-1999).]
 
O.K. ED...
You should have been a cop... you ask a lot of questions...
I have to make it quick... My girl thinks I have some sort of twisted internet sex-thing going on... I tell her that I am participating in an internet discussion group about home recording and she thinks I am full of shit...
My signal path is very simple...
Mic's into my mixer, adjust the trim to get the right level... into my sound card... into Cool Edit Pro...
Mixdown is done internally... I get the levels right and click "mixdown". The mixdown is a WAV. file and I can burn Disks from that WAV.
Once the signal is on hard drive... it stays there... All of my processing is done within Cool Edit Pro... I have no outboard gear...
The path from CEP runs back through my soundcard into a stereo channel on my mixer to the monitor out jacks(which go through the EQ's)
I am using a collection of bastard orphan cables that appeared in my footlocker after numerous relocations...
I can explain it in more detail when I am sober... but it doesn't get much simpler than that...
I'm gonna take a picture of my setup and then maybe you'll understand... There aren't a whole lot of options as far as signal paths go...
I don't know where I could have gone wrong...
All I know is that when people come over and I have the stereo cranked... They don't say..." Jeez... that's way too much high end..." If I am compensating... then it seems to agree with ears other than mine...
Then again we all have been to too many shows...
I do actually take ear plugs when I go to see a band live... I usually listen for awhile then when it starts to get old and loud... put in the plugs...
I recently made the mistake of leaving my earplugs at home for the loudest show of the decade...(SLAYER at the House of Blues in New Orleans) I went to see two of my favorite bands ( System of a Down & HED(pe)), which were opening...
They had arena volume shit going on in a medium size club... I guess when you get that old you have to shake things up...
UH... i got off of the track... I need to go to bed now...
The only outboard gear I have is a mixer and monitors... Not many options...
Good night- S8-N
 
By the way I argee totally with Brad... Take earplugs to shows... you never know when the sound man will suck and crank those teeth shattering high-mids...
I make it a point to take ear plugs to shows... nothing sucks more than burning out your ears on a couple of shitty bands that you didn't want to see in the first place and ruining your perception of a band that you have been wanting to see for years...
I just can't wear 'em on stage...
 
Here is my story:
Before I really got into recording I mixed live shows. I worked with one band most of the time, but would mix other bands upon request. I eventually spent more time in the studio than I did mixing concerts. Some bands stage volume was so loud I had to really crank the PA up so that I could get a good mix. The day after a show where I had to do this very thing, I had session to do. It was terrible for me that day; I could rotate the highs of a channel's eq and could not tell any difference in the signal one way or another. It was at that point that I decided that I would give up on mixing live shows and limit myself to studio production only.
 
whats with satan and threads that go totally off the original topic ? hehe..

- eddie -
 
Well S8-N, it just sounds like you need some new cable first, and then you are just gonna have to get used to that yucky flat sound. I still think that you should also consider what factor the room that you are in is doing to the sound. I would say that you are not going to want to be any farther away from your monitors than 3 feet. Near field monitors were designed to go just on top of some really big mixers, and the distance usually works out to about 3 feet on most of those big mothers. Also, make sure that you don't have a wall too near behind you. At least 15 feet if possible. This will make sure that reflections from the rear will not hit you early enough to cause phase cancellation to bad, or to double certain frequencies causing you to turn them down. A diffuser of some sort behind you would be idea for that kind of problem. Could probably build a decent looking one with 2X4's and 1X4's that would be quite functional. Investigate getting rid of the corners in your mixing room too. Low end loves to build up in corners.

If the environment is right, and new cables, and you still tend to overemphasis the lows and highs, then it is DEFINATELY hearing loss issues, in which case the advice above about getting an analysis done to determine just where it is would be helpful, but I would have to say that emulating what you hear on professionally done CD's would really tell you most of what you need to know.

When I started my studio, I also had a tendency to overemphasis stuff. I think as you gain more experience, and ALL your equipment is pretty damn good stuff, you will find yourself going for very different sounds. I don't think that golden ears are necessarily something that is natural, you kind of develope them. Paying attention to many small things net great results in recordings. That is the bottom line. It is a lot to remember sometimes, but in time, it all comes second nature.

I look forward to hearing the new mix.

Ed
 
war support

earplugs at an indoor slayer show aren't dorky-they're self-protection! i always bring plugs to heavy indoor shows. i also don't crank my own stuff up anywhere in the ear-damaging range, because i enjoy it just fine at the kinda-tough-to-talk range. note that i said talk, not yell. at the last slayer show i saw, you could scream in one anothers' ear and still not hear it. glad i had plugs.
 
Another point is that (for reasons I don't fully understand) BAD sound usually sounds better at higher SPL's.

The worse the sound system, the more you want to turn it up. The more you turn it up, the more it distorts. So you turn it up even more to make it sound, uh... better. :confused: It's a cruel loop.

If you've ever heard really hi-fidelity sound reinforcement, it's a beautiful thing. Notes cut through the crowd with space and clarity even at relatively low SPL's. High quality sound can definitely help save your hearing.

barefoot
 
A real-world example of what Barefoot is saying: two shows I saw this summer, the Alan Parsons Walk Down Abby Road, and the reunion tour of Roxy Music. Both had absolutely flawless sound, best I'd ever heard. So good that they were the only shows in years I took my earplugs out - they were loud, but not typical rock concert loud, and every sound was crystel clear.

Also I figured out a trick so I am never caught without earplugs. This may sound silly, but I swear this works great if you forget to bring a pair:

1. Go into the john and take a single square of toilet paper (two-ply prefered)
2. Fold it in half, then half again, then half again two more times into a strip (like rolling a joint)
3. Tear in half (one for each ear)
4. The fold each piece up in thirds.

When done you have a piece about a half inch long. You want to put it in your ear folded side in, torn side out (so no little bits get left inside) and do NOT stick it in too far. It works surprisingly well, although if you are sensitive about weird looks you might want to wait until the house lights go down.

I used to have a pair of Sonic Filters, nice rubber earplugs with a metal "channel" which supposedly cut volumne without muteing sound. I found that they didn't work any better than toilet paper.
 
POSTED BY SONUSMAN

The next thing that is important to address here with your monitors is the signal path. If ANYTHING in your monitor signal path is bad, your mixes will reflect this. Even in the case that you are listening to alot of pro mixes through it. Bottom line here, buy some Monster Studio Link 1000 audio and speaker cable for your monitor path. I can't even begin to tell you the difference in the quality of the sound when you use this wire. You can start hearing things that you couldn't before. Next, you gotta have an amp that rocks! I have a Hafler P-3000. This amp is like minimum studio grade stuff. I have listened to my same monitors through other amps and could really tell the difference. But at about $700-800, this amp is not for the financially challenged.



BRAVO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Audioquest, Straightwire, Kimber Kable, MIT, also worth considering.
 
Here we go again.:rolleyes:

If you're talking microphones, that source very low currents and voltages which will subsequently be amplified by dozens of dB's, I'm certainly open to arguments that cables make a difference.

But if your talking speaker cable, NO. There is absolutely no evidence that normal lengths and gauges of speaker wire cause any audible effect. You often hear arguments from the audio mythology crowd about esoteric signal qualities like "microdynamics". Bulllshit.

The resistance, capacitance, inductance, skin effect, phase, ect. of 10 ft (2m) of 12 gauge copper speaker cable alters the signal (both dynamically and overall level) on the order of 0.02dB. This means there is a 0.02dB difference between using speaker wire and directly attaching your speakers to the amplifier. 0.02dB is more than a factor of 10 smaller than the absolute minimum difference threshold of audibility of 0.25dB.

Now if you want to compare the difference between two cables of the same length and gauge, regardless of the design, your looking at effects on the order of 0.0002dB. Speaker parameters are very dependent on temperature and pressure. Simply changing you thermostat by a degree or two Fahrenheit, or a low pressure zone moving into your area will cause responses changes orders of magnitude greater than this.

People always hate to hear this, because they think it makes them look foolish, but the biggest effect of wires on audio is the Placebo effect. The placebo effect is nothing to be scoffed at or ashamed of. It's very real and very powerful. Often in clinical studies of medicines the placebo effect is actually larger than the effect of drugs which are subsequently deemed as "very effective". This is why we always need to look at the numbers. Mathematics and test instruments aren't influenced by suggestion like the frail whims of human perception.

Try psyching yourself into believing that painting you zip cord with green magic marker will dramatically "open up the sound". Magic markers are a lot cheaper then MIT, or Kimber Kable.

barefoot
 
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