monitor subwoofers

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frist44

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I have some tannoy reveals and feel like I could real use some more low end as you might imagine. It's always a surprise when i play it on another system and hear all the low end i was missing.

I was wondering if I decided to get a subwoofer, is there a difference between getting one say at best buy or a home audio shop, or the ones made by tannoy. I'm assuing the point is again to have a flat response and the tannoy might be better at that than a home stereo sub, but how much does it matter. No matter what, I'm going to have to learn how the system translates and make the necessary adjustments.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Brandon
 
Hi there,

Yes, there is a difference. You will be best served, (and frequency matched), by getting the matching sub.

Take my word for it or search these forums for "monitor" and "professional". Like most things in life, it boils down to "you get what you pay for".

Some other things to consider -

- How big is your room? If it is smaller than 2550 cubic feet you literally don't have enough space to generate the length of sound wave necessary to properly provide even sub-bass.

- Do the Tannoy Reveal's have a low-end cross-over frequency switch/filter? If not, you will also need to buy a crossover to achieve some sort of flat response. The sub will normally have a defineable crossover point, but if your monitors don't then they will also still be pumping out the noise in the sub-area. This reduces their performance, clarity and accuracy.

- Have you acoustically treated your room? If not, then it will not be uncommon to see peaks and dips of +/- 20dB within any range of 10-15kHz anywhere in the spectrum, but particularly noticeable in the bottom end.

The downside here is that acoustic treatment below 150Hz gets hard. It is simply really, really difficult to properly handle bass boom effectively in this area. So while adding a sub will give you louder bass, it will also lie to you even more than your current monitors.

Heard of room modes? Or even the dreaded "Standing Waves"?

Simply put, when a certain frequency is played in your studio or mixing room, it will create a sound wave which is an exact match for either the length, width or height of your room. This will only happen at certain frequency points and not all. There are plenty of calculators which can show you where your room will have these sorts of issues. Do a google for "room mode calculator"

Basically what it means is that you end up with some notes being way LOUD, while others, (which are hitting a reflection of themselves and flatlining), can't really seem to be heard at all. Use a tone generator to make the sound of one of the frequencies identified in the room mode calculator, (use one somewhere between 40 - 90Hz), and take a walk around your room. You will hear places where you get a whole lotta bass and others where you get nothing.

Plug in a bass guitar and play through an E scale....do you get something like this?

e f# G# AA b c# d# e

My "A" used to stimulate a room mode and I would get a real big boom on it. Your note may be different. But either way, it's not much fun when trying to set up a mixing position and trying to hear whether or not the kick needs another couple of dB or not...

So, "learning how the system translates and mak(ing) the necessary adjustments", could be a pain in the arse if you don't have a good grip on your room.

:) Q.

Trust me - I learnt the hard way.....
 
I've treated my room properly. Although it's no ideal mixing dimensions, I have to work with what I have. I just know the reveals don't go very low and I've been almost working blindly on the bass below 60Hz and finding that when i play them on our big stereo speakers, the bass is overwhelming. So do you think this warrants the purchase of a sub?

Brandon
 
As long as you have an idea of where your problem areas are, then fine... You will also need to treat properly with traps or resonators for your spike points.

Also, buy a sound level meter from Tandy/Radio Shack, they are cheap as chips and will help you set up the sub against your monitors.

Do some google and search on here for sub woofer placement as this is critical in minimising the amount of excitation and therefore peak and dip across the bottom end.

I guess what I am saying is the sub will give you a better idea about what is in your mixes, but you will have to spend the time to set it up right otherwise you will still be in the dark -- you'll just have the lights on.....

:) Q.
 
The tannoy ps110b also employs a high pass filter for the monitors, so i wouldn't need a crossover.
 
That filter will stop the sub from playing sounds above a certain point that the nearfields are responsible for.

Do the nearfields themselves have a low-pass filter to stop them from playing down into the sub area?

If not, then that is what you would need a crossover for.

Typically you will set your sub's filter to kick in from 80-100Hz down. Your nearfields will still be presenting something down to at least the 60kHz area. Getting rid of this bump will make your bottom end response flatter and should improve the quality of performance on the nearfield as it is doing less physical work to produce these low tones.

:) Q.
 
The sub has a low pass for the sub itself, and a high pass for the speaker outs, so the monitors themselves play only whatever is above the low pass frequency.
 
I need some advice too, i'm limited in budjet so i'm probably going to be getting the Behringer B2031 Truth's now i've heard mixed reviews on these but i'm willing to work with them, rather than trying to mix with my headphones which I have been for 5 months. Anyhow will I need sub's for these as well? i'll be doing a mix of genre's Urban, Trance, & Game music. I'm just waiting to move out of my apartment and most likely will not have a treated room, any recomendations? I really don't have a big budget, if I can make some great sounding urban tracks without a sub i'd do it if not than i'd like to know what sub would be best.

For regular speakers I have some computer speakers with a sub, fairly nice ones, too bad I wasn't into production before I BOUGHT ALL THIS CRAP! oh and an older kenwood home stereo. Would I be better off using my computer speakers with the sub? or saving the money for the monitors and proper sub? I've looked under related accesories and found no Behringer subs, just Mackie or other.
 
You will hear a world of difference with anybody's "monitor" speakers compared to run of the mill computer or stereo speakers.

On that basis alone, your mixes will improve.

So no, you don't "need" a sub... (and as I wrote above, it can be a pain in the arse to set them so they actually help not hinder......)

I would not bust a gut to get a sub in the short term, rather concentrate on setting up your environment properly to tame the room's effect on your music.

It would be a good idea to get monitors with a good upgrade path to a complete sub system. The Tannoy system that frist44 seems to suit that description well with the provision of high and low pass filters on the box itself. Some other nearfield/sub combinations do not offer this flexibility.

I have no direct experience with either the Behringer or the Tannoy in a production environment so can't comment on the speakers themselves.

:) Q.
 
thanks for the advice, as for setting up the room properly for mixing, i don't have a set place yet, still looking, my main problem is going to be soundproofing and whatever that's gonna cost me. I'm sure my tenant won't mind if I soundproof a part of his house ;), what he doesn't know can't hurt him.
 
thanks for the advice, as for setting up the room properly for mixing, i don't have a set place yet, still looking, my main problem is going to be soundproofing and whatever that's gonna cost me. I'm sure my tenant won't mind if I soundproof a part of his house ;), what he doesn't know can't hurt him.
 
Brandon,

If your current speakers can't reproduce low frequencies then a sub will help. But I also agree with Qwerty that you need acoustic treatment, especially bass traps, a lot more than you need a sub. I suggest you read my Acoustics FAQ, second in the list on my Articles page:

www.ethanwiner.com/articles.html

--Ethan
 
Qwerty,

> If it is smaller than 2550 cubic feet you literally don't have enough space to generate the length of sound wave necessary to properly provide even sub-bass. <

That's not really true. One problem with small rooms is the high frequency of the initial modes. But the most common reason small rooms have trouble reproducing low frequencies is acoustic interference caused by reflections of the walls, floor, and ceiling. Once bass traps are installed, even a very small room can produce frequencies much lower than its dimensions would indicate. See the sidebar "Big waves, small rooms" in my Acoustics FAQ mentioned above for a more complete explanation.

> It is simply really, really difficult to properly handle bass boom effectively in this area. <

Not anymore. See my company's site www.realtraps.com.

> My "A" used to stimulate a room mode and I would get a real big boom on it ... So, "learning how the system translates <

Yes, excellent point, and I like your analogy of bass notes rather than frequencies. A lot of people wrongly believe they can learn their room and compensate for the peaks and dips caused by standing waves. In truth, every musical key is different, and requires a different compensation.

--Ethan
 
Ethan,
I've actually looked at your site quite a few times and thanks to you, I will say that i have a somewhat treated room. I have 705 across all the corners and 703 staggered on the flat walls.

I haven't noticed any odd things with the bass when i had my other speakers installed. My recordings improved much more than i thought the would the day after i installed the treatment. It was most noticable on drums.

anyway...thanks for your help, i think i'm gonna give the sub a try and see if it helps. I just don't like mixing the level of the bass guitar with blinders on. I did several iterations of the mix and each time just guessed at how much it needed to go down. I don't like that. Hopefully the sub will give me the information I need to make and educated guess.

Thanks,
Brandon
 
Ethan Winer said:
Qwerty,

> If it is smaller than 2550 cubic feet you literally don't have enough space to generate the length of sound wave necessary to properly provide even sub-bass. <

That's not really true. One problem with small rooms is the high frequency of the initial modes. But the most common reason small rooms have trouble reproducing low frequencies is acoustic interference caused by reflections of the walls, floor, and ceiling. Once bass traps are installed, even a very small room can produce frequencies much lower than its dimensions would indicate. See the sidebar "Big waves, small rooms" in my Acoustics FAQ mentioned above for a more complete explanation.

--Ethan
Click to expand...

Hi Ethan,

Let me just say thanks - I too have a treated room courtesy of the information you have posted on this BBS and your website.

One thing that I do believe makes the 2550 cubic feet thing "true" deals with sub placement within the room as it relates to modal peaks and cancellation. Granted that you can obviate these effects by using your rigid wall techniques, but the physical statement appears true as it relates to modal frequency distribution, their interaction and cancellation.

I am taking a lot of this from - http://www.asc-hifi.com/articles/ht3.htm - especially the "Anti-Mode, Anti-Cancel Sub Setup" section.

Now yes, this DOES ignore sub-bass treatment with either traps or resonators, but it does present a physical model which describes the process of modal interaction across the three main axes of the room - height, length and width.

The problem that becomes apparent in smaller rooms is due to the close positioning of modes across the bottom end frequency range, meaning the it is impossible to place the sub within the room without stepping on either Mr Height, Mr Length or Ms Width's modes. This means that you end up with peaks or dips somewhere along the way...........

Now, I have a small room - only 1135 feet. I found that despite the addition of bass traps and resonators, I was only able to tame these effects by around 5-10db. My peaks and dips were more in the order of 15-30db!!

I presume that the severity of these effects were as a result of the smallness of the room.

Without the scope or budget to go the whole hog in stiffening walls and the like, I ended up settling on a corrective EQ solution to at least provide me with a cubic foot of sweet and flat mixing space.

Love your work, Ethan. Thanks for sharing!

:) Q.
 
Ethan Winer said:
Qwerty,

> It is simply really, really difficult to properly handle bass boom effectively in this area. <

Not anymore. See my company's site www.realtraps.com.

--Ethan
Click to expand...

I know! It's a great site! I live in Australia, so shipping wooden coffins over here didn't seem like a cost-effective bang for buck option.

I nearly fell off my chair when I saw that you also have posted information on how to make one. I really respect you for that.

I couldn't source the Dow Corning product you use in Australia, so ended with a locally made equivalent rated at a 0.59 NRC @ 100Hz. Same box design and configuration as you provide for the "non-professional" version of the Real Traps.

I really need to build another six or so, but the ones that I do have up, (eight units), are working really well!

Regards,

Q.
 
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