modes are confusing me

  • Thread starter Thread starter Elmo89m
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Well last time I checked E# major has 11 sharps :-)

Lord knows I've seen way more unusual things than this in contemporary music. (1 flat that is not Bflat etc etc). I agree with you it would be very much against the norm.

Nothing personal dude, I'm not looking for a fight, honest :D
 
Nothing personal dude, I'm not looking for a fight, honest

Same here. We have an intelligent thread going on here without flaming, it's a first for this dump :p :p :p It's a good subject for everybody, theory in general.

OK, here is what you are missing:

E# cannot be written in a key signature. A key signature CANNOT have more than 7 sharps.

It just doesnt work like that. It has nothing to do with "norm". I played an accordian concerto last nite where the violins played spoons, seriously. THAT is against the "norm", but it didnt have 8 sharps :D :D I have played a piece where it is written that the narrator smashes your violin, seriously (8 songs for a Mad King, Peter Maxwell Davies). It doesnt have 8 sharps. :p

Get a piece of staff paper:

Try to write 8 sharps. You cant. 7 notes in a scale, 7 sharp limit. No exceptions. You can write a piece in Q ## major, it doesnt matter. It's one of the few laws of music that is unbreakable.
 
Well last time I checked E# major has 11 sharps :-)

E#
F##
G##
A#
B#
C##
D##

How many sharps are there? There are 7. This is where we are getting confused:

A double sharp is ONE sharp. A double cheeseburger is ONE Cheeseburger. They are accidentals. A double sharp is written with a symbol that looks like an X.

YOu cannot write a double sharp in a key signature. You cannot write 2 sharps on one line.
 
DavidK said:
A double sharp is ONE sharp.

IMHO this is semantics. G# major has 8 sharps, whether written in the key signature or not - it's one more step around the cycle of fifths.

YOu cannot write a double sharp in a key signature.

Says who? The same guy that said you can't have a key signature with only Eflat in it? Tell Bartok:-)

You cannot write 2 sharps on one line.

Alkan (and certainly others) wrote triple sharps (spelled X#) so how does that work? I think it's clear what he meant even though it may bend the rules. The players job is to play it...

Boulez's time signature 3/4/2 is baffling and completely unique. Do mean to say that any kind of deviation is illegitimate?

I myself, have a particular affinity for this sort of thing because I have played a ton of music by living composers, where it often seems every piece requires a slight deviation from the 'norms'.

I agree with you for the average musician this stuff will never be relevant.

I guess for me it comes down to that the understanding that musical notation is evolving and is more about communicating creative ideas than staying locked into the norms established around the time of JS Bach. (I'm really just trying to advance the cause of classical musicians be open to modern notational ideas!)

Peace, best regards Kirk
 
Boulez's time signature 3/4/2 is baffling and completely unique. Do mean to say that any kind of deviation is illegitimate?

I myself, have a particular affinity for this sort of thing because I have played a ton of music by living composers, where it often seems every piece requires a slight deviation from the 'norms'.

I am not sure what 3/4/2 means. If you mean 3+4/2, its old hat. Time signatures do not have the same qualities as key signatures. You could have 19+2.6/4.

I hope I am not coming off as argumentative, I am enjoying the debate :cool: I play tons of new stuff too. :)

Answer this:

How many lines does a staff have?

If you answer is other than 5, then we are talking about apples and oranges here. I am talking about the notation of western music. I could put a banana peel on a music stand and call it notation, but that is not what ( I think) we are talking about.

What you are trying to say is the alphabet could be ABCDE2G etc. Fine, I can accept a new alphabet. What I cannot accept is having a debate on the rules of the alphabet without having any rules, the alphabet is ABCDEF etc, there is no "2" in the alphabet.

Modern Notation software is what composers use. Last nite I played a piece by R. Murray Schaffer, prominent living composer from Canada. It seemed to be written on Finale: There is NO WAY to write 8 sharps in Finale, I own it. I own Sibelius and Encore and Cakewalk too, only 7 sharps. There is a reason for this. Much like how a staff in Finale will only have 5 lines. Try to do it, you cant, I just tried. I have been trying for 10 years :p it wont do it. It's against the rules.

Since you play cello, you know about alternative tunings (scordatura?). There is no FIXED law on tuning, although 99.999999999999999% of tunes have you tune the "normal" way.

There is a "fixed" law in regards to Key signatures, just like there is a "fixed" law with the alphabet. A computer keyboard cannot type a combination of "a" and "b", its one or the other.

If you WANT to put 8 sharps in a key signature, then you can put 6 lines in a staff. If this is what you are talking about than there can be no debate. There are 7 notes in a major scale: if you want to say there are 6,437 that's fine, but there are 7. Black and white, end of story, that's all she wrote, done deal, finito, case closed, done. THEREFORE, there can only be 7 accidentals. You can call it semantics all you want, there are 7. A sharp, double-sharp, triple-sharp, quadraple sharp, a sharp to the 5th power, whatever: you only get 7 per scale.
 
No not 3+4/2...3/4/2!!! :eek:

If I remember correctly the beat is a quarter note triplet with only two of them in the bar. So there rather than writing a tempo change, or something else, he invented a bar that allows him 2/3 of a triplet. F#CKED.

I think we're on the same page except for the cycle of fifths thing, which that chart I posted up before was showing.

David where are you based?

Cheers, Kirk
 
David where are you based?
Cleveland, how bout yourself?

I have lived in NYC Chicago Jacksonville Raleigh Ft Worth Boston St Louis New Orleans, summers in Santa Fe, Illinois, Colorado WA etc. I own a really bitchin suitcase :cool:

Good to have another string player around here. Where did you study?
 
I'm based in Ottawa ON. Did my undergrad in Florida, then a diploma at the Hochschule in Freiburg, Germany. My main income is from teaching, but I'm freelancing a lot and actually scored some nice grants for composing last year. I hope to keep going in that direction. Orchestra playing never suited me too well,from my limited freelance experience, too stressful and I never felt quite at home with the whole situation.

(Just bought a new cello! I'm totally stoked, it's amazing. It's worth twice as much as my car, so there goes the mic budget for the next two years...)
 
(Just bought a new cello! I'm totally stoked, it's amazing. It's worth twice as much as my car, so there goes the mic budget for the next two years...)

What kind is it?

I play a Matsuda violin, worth ten x what my buick is worth :D I had a Strad in TX, 1.7 million that sucka was worth. Obviously I didnt own it or else I wouldnt be hangin with you knuckleheads here, I would be eating grapes off of the chests of high-price french riviera hookers. ;)
 
And to think...I started all of this by refering to C dorian as the second degree of A# instead of Bb......
Well, I am just a guitar player, and to me A# is at A# and I don't care what makes it different from Bb because it won't change a damn thing about how I play something in C Dorian.....
It's great to hear such deep insight into music theory, but I wonder when the original poster stopped reading this thread?

:p :p :p
 
Even though Shar doesn't have it anymore (I bought straight from the maker)

It's the one on the top left: http://www.sharmusic.com/fidclogallery.asp

Incredible cello. No idea why no one bought before. Dark and rich, louder than hell (which IS important :D ). Did I mention it's beautiful?

Strad eh? Did it have a name? Don't know much about Matsuda, heard the name. Care to tell?
 
louder than hell (which IS important ). Did I mention it's beautiful?

Strad eh? Did it have a name? Don't know much about Matsuda, heard the name. Care to tell?

Agreed, Loud is GOOD. My fiddle is like a Cannon.

I had the MacKenzie Strad, 1685. The Concertmaster of Dallas plays it now. I was assoc CM in Ft. Worth, we had two Strads. Lots O money in TX.

Matsuda is one of the big living makers. He works out of Chicago and is affiliated with Bein and Fushi. Its a Strad copy and it is antiqued so it looks old, it was made in 1993.

It was sounding like crap recently, but I think I bumped the case in my car and it moved the soundpost, now it's really loud. I sit Concertmaster for most work so I need a powerhouse fiddle, and I am really happy with it.

Nice lookin cello on the Shar page :cool:
 
I think we've strayed a little bit from the original question........ :rolleyes:

Remember, this is music THEORY. There, everyone is right. :p
 
This is an easy way I found at looking at and understanding modes a little more less complicated than what they can be:

The following examples are outlayed using the notes of the C Major / A minor scale: C D E F G A B, to give you an outlay of the individual step patterns for each mode.


The Ionian Mode: From C to C: C D E F G A B C
TTSTTTS

The Dorian Mode: From D to D: D E F G A B C D
TSTTTST

The Phrygian Mode: From E to E: E F G A B C D E
STTTSTT

The Lydian Mode: From F to F: F G A B C D E F
TTTSTTS

The Mixolydian Mode: From G to G: G A B C D E F G
TTSTTST

The Aeolian Mode: From A to A: A B C D E F G A
TSTTSTT

The Locrian Mode: From B to B: B C D E F G A B
STTSTTT

The first and last note of the octave is always the principal note in any mode.
It is this note that establishes the "tonality" of the mode and it is the step pattern of tones and semi-tones that establish its "modality".


The step patterns above: T= Tone 2 frets, S= Semi-Tone 1 fret



I learnt this example from The Guitar Handbook by Ralph Denyer, a really informative book on all things guitar.
 
DavidK said:
I am not sure what 3/4/2 means. If you mean 3+4/2, its old hat. Time signatures do not have the same qualities as key signatures. You could have 19+2.6/4.
What do those mean?
 
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