modes are confusing me

  • Thread starter Thread starter Elmo89m
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Cod, it's ok to dissagree, but look at what private teachers teach (we'll call that the wrong way) and what formal schools teach (the right way- parallel). If you told a student, 'play a C major scale but start on the note G' it appears very simple to play modally. But tell that student to solo and they'll probably do some familiar licks that would work in C but fail to nail the important notes of G Mixolydian.

I take back what I just said about being the 'wrong' way. Hey, if it works for someone, then it's the right way. For me and my students, I prefer that they have an understanding of each mode and why those modes are different, then to simply play a major scale from a different note.

Remember, the idea behind modes is that they offer different feelings. Dark, mysterious, latin, happy, sad... It seems strange to try and get the dark feeling of Phrygian by playing a major scale.
 
Sirnothingness said:
Cod, it's ok to dissagree, but look at what private teachers teach (we'll call that the wrong way) and what formal schools teach (the right way- parallel). If you told a student, 'play a C major scale but start on the note G' it appears very simple to play modally. But tell that student to solo and they'll probably do some familiar licks that would work in C but fail to nail the important notes of G Mixolydian.

I take back what I just said about being the 'wrong' way. Hey, if it works for someone, then it's the right way. For me and my students, I prefer that they have an understanding of each mode and why those modes are different, then to simply play a major scale from a different note.

Remember, the idea behind modes is that they offer different feelings. Dark, mysterious, latin, happy, sad... It seems strange to try and get the dark feeling of Phrygian by playing a major scale.
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You don't get my approach I don't think.

I see the modes and keys as a mathematical matrix that crosses itself at several points.

Look at it this way. All modes are composed of the same set of intervals:
I tone II tone III semi IV tone V tone VI tone VII semi VIII

Looking at music in this way - forgetting about fingerings on the guitar, what's the easiest way to understand the modes?

IMO the easiest way is to say:
IONIAN tone DORIAN tone PHRYGIAN semi LYDIAN tone MIXOLYDIAN tone AEOLIAN tone LOCRIAN semi IONIAN tone DORIAN tone PHRYGIAN semi LYDIAN tone MIXOLYDIAN tone AEOLIAN tone LOCRIAN semi... ad infinitum...

Just center the set of intervals over whichever mode you wish to play in.

It's a repeating pattern of intervals.
Changing modes is simply changing the harmonic and melodic center of the piece.

I don't see how thinking about D dorian as 'C Major with D as the tonic' (why people are saying 'C Major starting on D' I don't know - 'starting on' has no particular musical meaning) changes the mode. Sure - you could think about D dorian's relationship to A aeolian (same notes - just centered on D, not A), or you could muse on D dorian's relationship to D minor (just raise the 6th).

There are many such relationships between the modes and their keys in music - all I'm saying is that the primary relationship, and the one most useful to know about is the mode's relationship to its major key.

I know the notes all over the fingerboard - so mode fingerings mean nothing to me, and maybe that's where this argument comes from.

I can be in any postition and playing in any mode. I don't think 'Oh - A Aeolian, best get to this position and use this fingering'. I think 'Ah - A Aeolian, key of C Major (i.e. no sharps or flats) centered on A.

I tend to think very much in terms of sharps and flats in the key in order to visualise a pattern for that key that covers the entire fretboard (maybe this is from the classical training I did) - so this really is the best way to think about the modes for me.

I really think that it's the phrase 'starting on' that's got people confused, as it has no musical meaning.

Rather than explaining D dorian as "C Major starting on D" (which is meaningless) I would explain it as "C Major with the melodic and harmonic center as D". I guess 'starting on' is just a shorthand way of saying that though.
 
Codmate said:
Rather than explaining D dorian as "C Major starting on D" (which is meaningless) I would explain it as "C Major with the melodic and harmonic center as D". I guess 'starting on' is just a shorthand way of saying that though.
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I've got no dog in this fight, but that was a very informative post.

You are definitely right about the "starting on" thing. I don't understand it either. It is just downright silly to think of starting any kind of melody on the same note every time. I'm sure the term "starting on" has stuck because of people practicing the scales/modes on guitar ("start on" the 7th fret for this finger position in this mode/key). That may make some logistical sense in terms of memorizing patterns on the fretboard, but is utterly useless in terms of playing something that sounds good.

Thanks!
 
Arguing about music theory is fun!


And you can learn alot :D
 
post.aux.fader said:
Arguing about music theory is fun!


And you can learn alot :D
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Yea, It sure beats the crap in the cave. I wish there was more of this type of arguing.
 
No argument here. Like I said, if it works for someone, then it IS the right way. My method is somewhat of a hybrid method as it doesn't follow parallel modes 100%. It works for me where other methods didn't. My main concern is that guitarists that want to learn to play modes, should try and understand them as well.

The nice thing about playing guitar is that 7 out of 12 notes are correct!
 
Sirnothingness said:
No argument here. Like I said, if it works for someone, then it IS the right way. My method is somewhat of a hybrid method as it doesn't follow parallel modes 100%. It works for me where other methods didn't. My main concern is that guitarists that want to learn to play modes, should try and understand them as well.

The nice thing about playing guitar is that 7 out of 12 notes are correct!
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And I like them odds!!!
 
krs said:
This is for DavidK..just to add to the headache.

http://www.mi.sanu.ac.yu/vismath/pennock/fig11.jpg

Still can't find the famous example I'm thinking of, but I will find it. It has DEFINITELY been used. (Think dominant of C# major? It sure as heck ain't A flat major! :D )
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Thanks.

This is a key chart. This is not a key SIGNATURE, they are quite different.

A key signature cannot have more than 7 sharps or flats, which is why you cant find any examples of it anywhere. Key signatures are for minor or major keys and relate to the notes in a scale, of which there are 7.

Download a demo of a notation program and you will see what I mean. You cant even force it to do what you are suggesting, it wont work. To have 8 sharps would mean that you would have 1 line identical, which obviously wouldnt work out very good.

There are NO pieces with 8 sharps. I dont know much about recording, I stink at it. THIS topic I know a lot about, I have been a pro symphony violinist for 25 years, play 250 concerts a year. Tonights symphony is Shostakovitch 5, 1 flat in it :D
 
I've been a professional cellist/teacher for only 5 years, but I know I've seen it (at school in a theory class). Scriabin maybe.

Apart from mainstream repertoire one can easily imagine this happening for transposing instruments.

I'll be back shortly with my findings:-)
 
Ok, me and Elmo are still confused, has anyone explained modes yet? Every book I read on the subject gives different answers, and everyone in this thread has different theories as well. Could modes be the bigfoot of Western music? This arguing over A# versus Bb only confuses the issue more. I know the are the same notes and are written differently depending on key signature. Does this have anything to do with modes?

As I understand it, in the Key of C, every mode has been covered by the playing of 7 notes: C D E F G A B is this correct?
 
Geez. I'm sure glad I did'nt have any music classes. How about being original and forget the mode stuff and just play the guitar to make it sound the way you want it too. :eek:
 
mikemorgan said:
As I understand it, in the Key of C, every mode has been covered by the playing of 7 notes: C D E F G A B is this correct?
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Nope. Check out this website:

http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/guitar/index_rb.html

On the right side is a little window called "Scales." Select "C" and the scroll down a little bit until you see "Ionian," "Dorian," etc.

Now go through and select each mode and compare the notes. Right under the fretboard are two options that allow you to switch between seeing the notes (C, D, E, etc.) or the intervals (b3, #4, etc.). This is very helpful.

But you'll notice, C Dorian has a flatted 3rd and 7th (Eb & Bb). C Lydian has a augmented 4th (F#), etc.

I realize this doesn't help much in terms of *when* to use the modes, but it is very helpful for understanding how the modes are derived.

Good Luck!
 
Found it! Charles Alkan:

Musically, many of his ideas were unconventional, even innovative. Some of his multi-movement compositions show "progressive tonality" which would have been familiar to Carl Nielsen (for example, the first chamber concerto begins in A minor and ends in E major). He was rigorous in avoiding enharmonic spelling, occasionally modulating to keys containing double-sharps or double-flats, to the annoyance of pianists who are forced to deal with aberrations such as distant keys such as E# major and occasional triple-sharps.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-Valentin_Alkan

Obscure...but it's there:-)
 
Okay the really simple version based on the information you are asking for:

A mode is a major scale played with a different starting note than the major scale's root.
(Don't pay any attention to the guys who will tell you that a B# is different to a C - it is, but in this context it doesn't matter. There are also lots of different modes that don;t fit into that definition, but that doesn't matter to you at this point, either).

Still with me?

Good.
(Cut and paste the following modes into a Word Document and line them up so that the letters all line up. Unfotunatley they don't line up when saved here, but you will see they are identical when you line them up).

Let's take a C Major scale. C D E F G A B C D E F G A B (also called Ionian mode)
. . . and a D Dorian mode D E F G A B C D
How about an E Phrygian mode E F G A B C D E
F Lydian mode F G A B C D E F
G Mixolydian mode G A B C D E F G
A Aeolian mode A B C D E F G A
B Locrian mode B C D E F G A B

If you look at the intervals between these notes, you will see that the relationships (i.e. how many frets between the root and second, second and third, third and fourth notes etc.) changes, and that gives you the following fact:
The Ionian and Lydian modes are Major.
The Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian modes are Minor
The Mixolydian mode is Dominant
The Locrian mode is Half-Diminished

You can take my word for it and skip the following if you like.
What makes them that way?
The interval between the root and the third note, and of the seventh and the root of the mode determines if it is major or minor. For the root/third note, four frets is major, three frets is minor. For the seventh/root, one fret is major, two frets is minor.

So four frets and one fret is major, three frets and two frets is minor.
Four frets and two frets is Dominant (Mixolydian mode)
I can't remember why Locrian is half-diminished - it's minor seventh with a flatted fifth, I think.

:confused:

Bottom line is - it's a major scale but with a different starting place as it's root.
 
krs said:
Found it! Charles Alkan:

Musically, many of his ideas were unconventional, even innovative. Some of his multi-movement compositions show "progressive tonality" which would have been familiar to Carl Nielsen (for example, the first chamber concerto begins in A minor and ends in E major). He was rigorous in avoiding enharmonic spelling, occasionally modulating to keys containing double-sharps or double-flats, to the annoyance of pianists who are forced to deal with aberrations such as distant keys such as E# major and occasional triple-sharps.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-Valentin_Alkan

Obscure...but it's there:-)
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I honestly dont know what the heck you are talking about. :confused: :confused:

What does this have to do with anything? All it says is that the guy writes in funky keys :confused: How do you get anything about 8 sharps :confused:

One more time:

2+2 =4. Period. No exceptions.

Key signatures can have 7 sharps or flats. THAT"S ALL. NO MORE. FINITO.

You can look all you want, you want find it, it doesnt exist, there is no such thing. The link you provided has nothing to do with anything in any way shape or form. What you are saying is 2+2=5. It doesnt, it equals 4.

There are 7 notes in a scale. You cant have more than 7 sharps. period.

The internet is MASSIVE, there are BILLIONS of examples out there. Try finding ONE. Just ONE. You cant, 7+0= 7. not 8. Not 9. 7.
 
Much of this thread is really good info. The problem is that modes are a part of music theory and not exclusively limited to guitar. In fact, they date back to the days of Gregorian chants. Many guitarists want to jump right in and 'master' them, when in fact, they miss much of what they are about.

Take your time and read up on them. Study them the way you would any other topic. Take one at a time and learn the specific 'feeling' that it portrays. You may become a master at them and realize that some of them will never fit into anything you play. You'll also learn that there are modes created from other scales such as the harmonic minor as well as altered modes.

So again, learn one at a time and understand the intervals within it and the type of feeling that it gives and you will be well on your way to becoming a better guitarist & musician. Not just some dude that can jam in D dorian and think he's Santana.
 
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